Seagull Chinese Twin Lens Reflex Camera
Photo thanks to Burt at Burt's Photo
www.burtsphoto.com
[email protected]

Index:
$75 Chinese TLRs Reviewed by John Stewart
Chinese Camera Review by Bo Hultberg
Historical Notes on Chinese Camera Production (1981)
Mini-Review of Seagull TLRs (at Calumet)
Models of Seagull Camera Notes
Panflex 120 Panoramic Camera
Postings on Chinese Camera Topics
Pros and Cons of Seagull TLRs
Resolution of Seagull TLR Camera Discussion
Seagull Folder Resolution & Notes
Six Lens Reflex Camera (3D on 645 film)
Top 25 Rating for Seagull Camera (magazine..)
WWSC meaning and Models

Related Links:
Chinese 35mm SLRs.. (Minolta..)
Chinese Camera Corp Product List (specs..) [12/2003]
Chinese Cameras (Chinese, but photos of stereo cameras etc..)
Chinese TLR Site (in chinese; photos)
Medium Format Marie at NYIP Reviews Seagull TLR [12/2002]
Phenix/Phoenix Camera Site
Seagull 203 Folder Manual courtesy of Bo Hultberg [03/00]
Seagull 203 Manual (PDF) (thanks to Darksmith) [4/2003]
Seagull Camera Home Page (factory)
Seagull Factory Direct Bulk Purchase Pricing Page

Chinese Camera Review by Bo Hultberg

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999
From: HULTBERG BO [email protected]
To: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
Subject: Chinese cameras

Hi Bob

This time I am sending you pictures and short descriptions of my Chinese cameras.

My first was the Seagull 203 which I bought some 25 years ago. Before being able to use it I had to clean the shutter from excessive oil. Since then it has worked very well and for some time I used it freqently partly because it is small and light and partly because I like it's lens which gives you somewhat soft yet sharp pictures. My next cameras were the Seagull TLRs 4A and 4BI. They both work well regarding their price. Next came the Chang-Cheng DF-4 which is a 6x6 SLR very much like a Pilot 6, a German 6x6 SLR from the mid thirties. My latest Chinese camera is the EASTAR EF-35II a simple 35mm plastic camera that I found for about $18 in a video shop.

Seagull 203 Folder Top View
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

Seagull 203 Folder Open View
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

SEAGULL 203

SEAGULL 4A

SEAGULL 4B

Both are decently made and will give you acceptable results regarding the price. The 4A is however easier to use and gives you somewhat better (sharper) pictures.

Chang-Cheng DF-4 Camera
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

Front of Chang-Cheng DF-4 Camera
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

Speed Settings of Chang-Cheng DF-4 Camera
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

CHANG-CHENG DF-4 CHANG-CHENG is the phonetic transcription for the Chinese characters meaning Great Wall according to a Chinese friend of mine. This camera, # 013543, is a SLR for the 6x6 cm or ,by using a mask, the 4.5x6 cm film format. It has a sturdy body of cast metal and a 1:3.5 f=90mm GREAT WALL lens, serial # 853428, in a 39mm (Leica) screw mount. The shutter has speeds 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/200 and B and is using the mirror as one part and a metal segment following it as a second part (much like the shutter used in EXA 1). After exposure the mirror has to be swung in viewing position by turning the shutter speed knob. This can only be done AFTER you have advanced the film OR pressed a double exposure prevention knob. This also cocks the shutter. Depending on the weight of the mirror the shutterspeed is reduced and probably not very accurate at the shortest time (1/200). A selftimer is built into the camera as well as a sync contact and a hot shoe.

The film is advanced by means of a knob and set in position by using one of 2 red windows covered with a metal slide. A second slide is turned in place using a coin so that only one of the 2 is open depending on the film size. One is marked 12 (for 6x6 cm) and the other 16 (for 4.5x6 cm).

The aperture is all manual, which means that you have to open it for viewing and focusing and then close it just before you take the picture. There are some coarse lines on the viewing screen indicating the size when using the mask for 4.5x6 cm film format as well as a cross in the middle with a circle around it. The screen is not very bright even when the lens is fully opened and hence hard to use under low light conditions. It works but is awfully slow and is a real challenge to use. As this is how a photgrapher in the thirties had to work. It gives you a lot of respect for the works of the photographers of that time.

On the top there is an exposure table printed in Chinese which makes you wonder if the camera was really intended for export. On the other hand it has a sticker inside stating it was controlled in Sweden before delivery.

Eastar EF-35II Camera
photo courtesy of Bo Hultberg - Thanks!

EASTAR EF-35II

Regards

/Bo

Announcement in Photo Equipment News International, the British Journal of Photography's email service, on Sept. 14, 2001 - Seagull's new 4A-107 now features a four element Cooke variant lens, a 75mm f/3.5, which is reportedly sharper and offers better resolution and contrast. The shutter has a new shutter lock, 1 to 1/300th second plus B, and the camera sports a black finish.  

Resolution of Seagull TLRs & Discussion

Seagull TLR Resolution - 4A-107 (4 element) & 4A-105, 4B-105 (3 element)
See related review in Popular Photography, April 2002, p.80, anonymous

The above chart highlights the advantages of the 4 element lens models of the Seagull over the 3 element lenses. Quite frankly, the 3 element lens is too modest a performer to justify the current costs ($185-235) in the USA market. Even the 4 element lens model needs to be stopped down to at least f/5.6 or f/8 for decent edge performance. For $80 in the past, such performance from a new TLR (with a return warranty if problems were found) was a decent buy. At the $40 price range a few years ago, your choices were limited to a Russian Lubitel or a Chinese Seagull TLR in new cameras.

So many of us advised the ultra-budget camera seekers to look into the Seagull TLRs as a relative bargain in new medium format cameras (TLRs) at $40 for the budget and $80 for the better model. Unfortunately, we/I have to change our advice today, in light of the huge price increases in these modest performing Seagull TLRs, and suggest other alternatives.

For the $250 price of the 3 element lens (4A-105..) Seagull TLR models, you can buy a lot of Rolleicord, Yashicamat, and even Rolleiflex TLRs on the used market. And a new Kiev 60 6x6cm SLR with interchangeable lenses starts at only $150-175 new on EBAY or from USA dealers. There are also lots of budget medium format cameras you can buy for $250 and up.

The model 4A-105 has a USA street price of $235, but is very similar to Seagull 3 element lens models which sold for only $39.95 at Porter's Camera store only 3 or 4 years ago (ouch!). The 4B-105 also has a similar 3 element lens, but lacks the automatic film advance (ruby window model. You have to look thru window to set film for each shot), yet it still costs $180.

The 4A-107 TLR with 4 element lens has a current USA street price around $260, unless you opt for the gold trim model ($395). There is also a new 4A-109 model which will have visible f/stops and distance markings on the lenses similar to the Rolleiflex (just glance down, not move camera to view).

My current advice if you want a TLR is to buy a later Rolleicord TLR. The Rolleicord TLRs often have a 4 element lens identical to those in the top of the line Rolleiflex. But you have to advance the film and shutter separately in this uncoupled mechanics economy model TLR. You can often find Rolleicords for $100+ in very usable condition, and with a much superior four element lens. Even the popular Yashicamat 124 TLRs are selling for $150-250, and have superior optics and mechanics to the Seagulls thanks to being the last of the line of Japanese TLRs. Earlier Yashicamat, Ricohflex, Minolta Autocord, and other 4 element lens TLRs often cost less than $100-150+ on Ebay, yet are probably better buys optically and mechanically too.

At $40 and $80 a few years ago, new Seagull TLRs were good buys, but at a 400%+ increase in price is hard to justify based on the small improvements in camera optics and mechanics, in my opinion. Certainly, for $250 and up, you can get the original Rolleiflex with superb optics, and sometimes for $150+ in user condition. If anything, examination of the above lens resolution chart against competing budget options (Bronica nikkors, Koni-Omega 100/200 lenses, Kowa 6/66) would re-emphasize why I have changed my recommendation (at a quadrupling of prices). If you really want to have a Seagull, look on the used market. These Seagull 4A-107 models often turn up in the $75-100 USD range used for sales from individual sellers. At that price, they are at least competitive against more popular (and more pricey) Yashicamat 124 TLRs and the range of budget TLRs readily available via EBAY and other outlets.

Historical Notes On Chinese Camera Production (1981..)

The seagull DF-1 is a copy of the Minolta SR-2 with no meter, commanding prices of $260. Compare that to rent of $3/month and monthly salaries of $60/month for a family (2 workers). A Tokina 80-200mm f/4.5 zoom costs the equivalent of $1,750! Ouch!

Circa 500,000 cameras were made in China in 1981, of which 90% were Twin Lens Reflex models (mainly rolliflex copies). The $75 Seagull 4B is a simplified, non-auto film advance model. The Seagull 4A is an export model (cost $112) sold in USA as well as in China. The main use of these cameras is to shoot Black & White film and do contact prints, taking advantage of the 6x6cm negative size to make usable contact prints. There are very few enlargers sold in China relative to the number of users.

The East Wind (photo on p. 70) is a Hasselblad clone or copy of exacting detail. Only about one hundred were made in a Shanghai Seagull factory. They typically sell for circa $5,000 and up, with an 80mm f/2.8, 50mm f/4, and 150mm f/4 lens (with integral leaf shutter).

The Peafowl is made in Harbin, while the Pearl River is made in Souchow. Why are there 3 similar cameras? The Chinese government didn't trust one factory, so three factories were put into production. But the parts are slightly different, and only the lenses reliably interchange.

The DF-2 (photo on p. 71) is made in Beijing along the lines of the pre-WWII Pilot reflex. Note that the Great Wall DF-2 is a 6x6cm SLR, while the Seagull DF-2 is a CdS TTL meter 35mm SLR copy based around the 1959 Minolta SR-2. The DF-2 uses a Leica thread 3 element 75mm f/3.5 lens with a shutter speed of 1/30th to 1/200th of a second and old fashioned red window film advance (non-auto).

Top of Page Photo Notes:

This Chinese Seagull Twin Lens Reflex camera is a good example of one of the last production twin lens reflex cameras still being made for under $100 US. Try to get a four element (model 4A-1) lens if possible, and give the camera a good checkout. Nonetheless, these Seagull cameras are one of the least expensive new medium format cameras on the market.

Seagull T.L.R made in China. This is a twin lens reflex camera made in 1970 that takes 12 2 1/4 square exposures on 120 film. The available shutter speeds are 1 second to 1/300th of a second with Bulb. The lens is a HAIOU-31 75mm 3.5, there is a flash sync, and a depth of field guage. There is also a built in magnifier, as well as a sports finder, in the pop up view finder. The condition of this camera is very good, both cosmetically and mechanically. Also included with this camera is the original lens cap and Hard leather case, both in good condition.

Chinese Seagull Folder Model 203 Resolution & Related Notes

See the article for more details on lens testing and standards. The Seagull 203 features a leaf shutter from 1 second to 1/300th second plus Bulb and X. In 1972, the folder cost only $28 new (US$). The camera is a super Ikonta IV copy. It has front element focusing, providing stronger strut design at the cost of optical quality, often being mediocre at the edges, especially when closer than 6 feet or so (hence 4 ft minimum distance).

Postigs Related to Chinese Cameras...

> One kind of medium-format camera which made in China.
> Do any body know it?
>

Yes, it is a copy of Pilot Super (KW, Germany 1930's), a bit altered though. The shutter is like the one in Exa. It is no longer produced, should be rather cheap, but it is possible to make quite nice photos with it. For more info, see;

Douglas St. Denny; Cameras of China;Jessop Publishing, Leicester 1989

Per B.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (Dave Strandberg)
[1] Re: Any Good: Seagul TLR ??
Date: Thu Apr 30 1998

I disagree with some of the responses. I bought a Seagull TLR *and* a Yashica Mat-124G this month at a consignment sale. Yes, the Yashica has a meter, a better film winding system, and reputedly better lenses (with which I would have to agree from my limited experience with these two cameras), but the Seagull has a beautifully bright finder. Of course I'm not sure that it is the _original_ screen, and I'm thinking about trying to fit this screen into the Yashica.

I'll admit that the Yashica is much nicer, but the Seagull works fine and produces prints that look better than my best 35mm prints (which are from APX-25 in my 35mm Nikon). It can shoot 6x6 or 6x4.5 by inserting a blocking plate. It has a self-timer and a flash sync socket. Maximum shutter speed is 1/300. I'm still trying to verify the accuracy of the mechanical shutter, but it hasn't given me any problems.

If you're looking for an very economical entry to MF, I think you would be pleased with a Seagull. If you shoot a Hassy, you might think it's garbage. But then you'd be used to paying $2000 for a lens, right? I paid about $30 for the Seagull and $220 for the Yashica Mat-124G.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "John Stewart" [email protected]
[1] Re: Seagull and Great Wall
Date: Wed May 13 1998

The $80 model is not a Seagull, but a "Great Central" with a top speed of 1/500 as opposed to the 1/300 on others! Dual format and nice performer for the money.

John

[Ed. note: this ad is posted for its info content - presumably long sold]

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (ArrahCee)
[1] FS: Seagull 203-1 Folding 120 Camera
Date: Sun May 24 1998

For Sale:

Seagull 203-1 folding dual format 120 camera. 75/3.5, B-300, rangefinder focus, timer, hot shoe and PC jack. Very clean, S/N 00029. Works great, fold-down mask for 6X4.5 sometimes scratches film (this can probably be fixed), OK on 6X6. I've run several rolls of Tri-X and HP5 through it-- not the sharpest lens in the world, but not bad stopped down. Neat little camera. $100, I ship 48 states.

Rick Cunningham

[email protected]

Review of $75 Chinese TLRs by John Stewart

So here is the text, fairly edited, but not perfect. Hope it helps!

John

The once proud twin lens reflex (TLR) camera has fallen upon hard times.

The darling of photojournalists, (some) famous fashion photographers and countless advanced amateurs through the 1950s has been eclipsed by medium format SLRs and, of course 35mm in all of its various forms.

Still TLR users point out that their camera of choice is compact, produces a easy to enlarge 2 inch negative and is vibration free. Since the TLR uses a leaf shutter, it synchronizes flash at any speed, making it idea to use fill flash. There is also no image blackout at the precise moment of exposure, which many photographers appreciate.

Critics point out the down side of TLR use: Only one fixed lens, close-ups are tricky and the image in the viewfinder is reversed. Fans dismiss these as minor points. You can join in the debate at rec.photo.equipment.medium format. Or do a web search for Rollei to uncover much more about the history of TLRs.

The hard, cold facts are that the TLR in any form is fading away. Existing new models are quickly going out of production!

Remaining (for now) is the fabulously expensive Rolleiflex 2.8 GX, the mostly plastic Russian Lubitel, and a handful of Chinese TLRs with names like Seagull, Eastland, Pearl River, and Great Central (China.) According to one source (Porters Camera Catalog), the state run Chinese factories making some TLRs are shutting down and the remaining Porters stock is all that remains.

Of course, who knows if a large supply of TLRs are stashed away in some forgotten warehouse in Beijing. And while Porters says this on one page, on another they offer an improved Chinese TLR using the American Kalimar name for just under $200! Kalimar has a long history of importing low-end cameras from Russia and China.

Until recently, the factories in Shanghai and the province of Hubei were supplying less expensive TLRs for the rest of the world. A lower-end Chinese TLR is still a prime item for small photo studios in developing countries, where even the cost of a used medium format SLR is simply out of the question.

One net poster reports that in countries like Nepal, portrait studios often cut individual squares of film from 120 rolls for single portraits! But enough background. How much NEW camera can you get for $75.00?

Specifications.

Twin Lens Reflex camera accepting 120 size roll film. Primary negative size is 6x6 with a metal adapter for 6x4.5 negatives. Knob wind film advance with ruby window for positioning film in both formats. Matched 75mm F 3.5 lenses (Three element, coated). Apertures from f/3.5 to f/32. X synchronized shutter from one second to 1/500 + B Shutter is uncoupled and must be cocked prior to each exposure.

Self timer included.

Focusing via ground glass waist-level finder with extra markings for 6x45 format. A large swing out magnifier is built-in for critical focus. There are no fresnel rings or microprism focus aids. No provision for parallax correction, either mechanical or with markings. Front of waist-level finder hood opens for use as a plain sports finder.

Focus range from XX to infinity. Markings in meters only. Flash attachment with standard PC outlet. Flash shoe on left side of camera, not hot. Impressions.

My first impression was that this is a lot more camera than I expected for under eighty bucks. Yes, the real leather case was nice, but also the overall fit , finish and engraving was quite good. There were a few ragged edges on the back leather, but the chrome was shiny, the black was black and the markings were very easy to read.

This is in contrast to the silk-screened or printed markings on my Russian Lubitel.

All parts seem to have been made for the camera, with the exception of the flash shoe. This appeared as an afterthought, using a hot shoe with the center connection missing.

The front shutter accepts standard cable release.

The two large knobs for advancing the film and focusing are black plastic.

This is in marked contrast to the small film spool knobs, which are chromed metal. Obviously a cost cutting move.

The ground glass view is bright enough for daylight use, but a bit dim for poorly lit interiors. Using the magnifying glass helps. Since an Acute Mat screen costs more than the entire camera, I can see why it is not included!

The layout of the shutter speeds and f/stops are nicer than my Rollei MX-EVS with its small windows. These can easily be set with thumbs. The shutter speeds are click stopped, the apertures are not. Watch out for accidental bumps.

The shutter release is smooth and predictable. Unlike older TLRs, the self timer is not gummed up and actually works! Also unlike some early Japanese TLRs, the body catch seems quite positive.

After seeing the cheaper camera that is something like a Rolleicord, I'd like to see the big brother with the crank wind, which is more like a Rolleiflex.

But I think the better model should be about $124.95, not $189.95. I don't trust the counting and spacing of the more expensive camera, but I do trust my ability to advance to the next number with this model! Also the $189.95 model is apparently from the old Seagull factory as it has a top speed of only 1/300. The cheaper model goes to 1/500.

Do not expect to use the 6x4.5 metal adapter plate without some modifications. As delivered, it scratched the emulsion of the film. The solution is to find some THIN plastic tape and gently fold it around the top and bottom edges of the adapter. If you can find it, splicing tape for old-fashioned reel-to-reel tape recorders might be the best choice. It is very thin, but durable. It also will not dissolve or degrade as quickly as some tapes. Id suggest staying a way from black electrical tape, as it may be too thick and gummy. How any tape holds up in prolonged heat is another question. Any info on this or other solutions to scratching will be added to this info.

The camera is quite easy to use, but you must develop some good habits to avoid double exposure.

Always advance the film immediately after making an exposure. NEVER cock the shutter before advancing the film!

When in doubt, advance the film (A blank frame is better than a double exposure!)

Remember which format you are using and use the correct ruby window! Check your aperture settings often, as they can slip! The viewfinder has a cross hair which allows you to place objects in the dead center of the finder. But it also divides the frame into four segments to aid in composition. The extra lines for 645 are a bit distracting. Of you plan on using 645 a lot, you may want to make a simple template out of black paper and place it inside the viewfinder.

Image quality.

You would be hard pressed to tell which 8x10 print was made with this camera or any of the leading medium format cameras on market. (And yes, I have owned & shot the Rollei 2.8 GX, Pentax 645 and others!) At 11x14 you will notice some softness in the four corners of the square negative. But given the fact that this camera cost less than many simple accessories for the big name brands, it is quite a bargain!

Want to increase the sharpness of this camera dramatically? Use a tripod! Time after time, magazines articles have demonstrated that the use of a tripod, even at high speeds, can substantially improve the quality of the image that hits the negative.

One final note: Domestic Chinese cameras (as opposed to cameras made in China in foreign factories) may vary from unit to unit. My camera is very satisfactory. You camera may be better, or worse. If you do buy from Porters, they have a full guarantee and refunds/exchanges are not a problem.

From: "John Stewart" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR Cameras
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98

Pardon me for pounding on my favorite "find," but the $75 TLR (with case) in the Porter's catalog does a damn fine job for the money. NOT the $189 model, the $74.95 one. Sure, it has a ruby window and you have to cock it, but I just souped a roll of 12 EX and got 12 great negs! (From a technincal point of view, at least!)

John

From: [email protected] (HMorHM)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR Cameras
Date: 25 Mar 1998

I just saw an exhibit at UCR's California Museum of Photography (Riverside CA).

It's portraits taken of prisoners during the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. All are credited to the Seagull camera of that vintage. The prints were made from salvaged negatives as part of a grant. This camera is clearly capable of capturing powerful images, "Facing Death". There is an essay at the museum's site. Also other locations where the prints can be seen. Visit them at: http://www.cmp.ucr.edu/

-Heath

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000
From: william corr [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Cambodia

One contributor suggests that the photographs taken at Tuol Sleng Interrogation Center (S-21) in Phonm Penh were taken with a Seagull 6x6 of 1970s vintage.

I wondered about this myself while visting S-21 and asked about it but it proved impossible to persuade the curators to open the photographic archive on a casual vistor's idle whim.

It would plausible, alright. The S-21 photographer,Nhem Ein, was Shanghai-trained and he trained his six assistants at S-21 himself. However, some of the photographs displayed in S-21, like the last known photograph of Madame Vann Piney (the purged Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs of Democratic Kampuchea) show the sort of sprocket holes one usually associates with 35mm cameras.

=====
William Corr
English Department,
Yosu National University
San 96-1 Dundockdong, Yosu, Chollanamdo,
REPUBLIC OF KOREA 550-749
Tel: 0662-659-3510 FAX: 0662-659-3003
e-mail: [email protected]          

Postscript: Incidentally, Jessops in the U.K. sell a line of Chinese-made Centon cameras.

[Ed. note: not all seagulls are TLRs, here is a Seagull 203 listing from EBAY]

Made in China. The Seagull 203 is a folding 120 medium format camera with split image rangefinder,75mm 3.5 lens-coated. Shutter speeds 1-300 plus B. Dual format 2 1/4X2 1/4 or 1 5/8x 2 1/4.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon Jul 13 1998
From: "Charles B. Wahlstrom" [email protected]
[1] Re: Lubitel 166 or Chinese Seagull?

The TLR in Porters catalog may not be called a Seagull, but it is a chinese made camera. The part # is 04-0031 and it costs $74.95 according to catalog A-61. I t does say that only a few hundred remain, so maybe they are out of them. It look s like the $74.95 TLR is being replaced with a Kalimar TLR that cost $189.00 and h as more features.

My $.02

Chuck Wahlstrom
[email protected]

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Andrew Cruickshank [email protected]
[1] Re: Lubitel 166 or Chinese Seagull?
Date: Tue Jul 14 1998

Ben Syverson wrote:

>
> I want to step (lightly) into medium format, but I don't know whether to
> go with the Lubitel 166 or the $75 Chinese Seagull camera from Porters.
> Cost is not an issue between the two - although $75 is my limit, but image
> quality is. Are the Chinese optics better than the Russian?
>

I got my hands on a Seagull this morning courtesy of my wife who spotted it while abroad and thought I'd find it rather novel as a souvenir. The model is a 4A-1 and it has a hot shoe. Cost equivalent was about US$60 to 65.

Build quality is .... let's be kind here ... ummmm .... suspect.

The metal work and plastic covering is rough. There are a couple of tiny rust blemishes on the edges of the bare metalwork and the finish of the metalwork and the vinyl panneling is a bit rough.

It was supplied with a leather case that started to split when the front was hinged down clear of the lower lens. This has been thrown out.

I loaded film and while closing it up the little safety catch that stops you from accidentally unlatching the back cover just became loose and doesn't catch anymore.

The viewfinder is actually quite good. I can remember Lubitels from years ago and they were difficult to focus. This beast is quite easy - bright ground glass screen, split focusing spot and a reasonable pop up magnifier.

I would be very wary of buying one of these things. Fine as a bit of fun or maybe to find out if you like using 6x6 and a waist finder. But you have to be prepared to either chase up the warranty (mine has a 1 year guarantee card from the dealer - who is about 7000 miles away) without incurring charges way out of proportion to the thing's purchase value or throw it away (or use it as a paperweight or desk ornament?). I certainly wouldn't buy mail order - better to see it opened up, check the finish, and fiddle with it before accepting it.

-------------
Andrew.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "John Stewart" [email protected]
[1] Re: Seagull Usability
Date: Thu Sep 03 1998

I have not used the new, black Seagull ($139 at Calumet) or the "Kalimar" (Same camera but $199 when sold by thieves.)

However, I have used earlier models AND the Lubie.

Since the Seagulls are patterned after Rolleis and 'cords, and not the V oightlander Brilliant, they have the tradtional full focus screen. The controls are easier to use all around than the Lubie.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] [email protected]
[1] Re: Seagull Usability
Date: Fri Sep 04 1998

Dear Citron,

[email protected] (lemonade) wrote:

q>
q> Apart from the well-known quality concerns, what is the usability of the
q> newest Seagull TLR like? I.e., is it easy to compose and focus on the
q> groundglass, or is the finder more like that of the Lubitel recently
q> described here;

is there a flip out magnifier;

Yes. Actually, the hood is very well made what are the f-stop and

q> shutter speed ranges,

f3.5 - 22

1- 1/300th.

q> is the Bulb setting usable, is there a self-timer,

Yes, yes

q> how is shutter cocking handled,

On mine, it's the two action Rolleiflex since it is a copy of it.

q> does it synchronize with electronic flash q> at all speeds,

Yes. It even has a standard hotshoe!

q> how is the shutter action and noise,

Very smooth shutter though the trigger travel is longer, noise level comparable to a Rolleiflex of which it is a copy. I think the 4B series is a Rolleicord copy

q> what size filters does q> it take,

34mm threaded (not bayonet)

q> what is the minimum focusing distance, does it take both 120 and q> 220 film, what size tripod mount does it have, if any; you know, the works. q>

1 m on my lens that is marked 'SA85' 3.5/75mm

I am quite sure that it is 120 only

Tripod mt is that for 35mm SLRs

q> -- q> Due to the intolerable volume of spam these days, I no longer supply a q> valid email address.

Yes, I know..........

You might want to buy it used rather than new.

I don't think the current new prices are that worthwhile - would rather pay a bit more for a used Yashicamat 124 or something like that with a Yashinon taking lens.

The built quality is MUCH better on the Yashicas.
------------------------------------------------
The email address is bogus. Too much spam........

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (FIMP519)
[1] Re: Opinions - Seagull 6x6
Date: Fri Sep 04 1998

Hi Ken:

you could pick up copy of Photo Answer Magazine Sep.98. They have a hands-on article in it, I think 1 of the cameras they compared it to is the Yashica 124G, and the Rollie............

Its not as romantic as the other cameras but the lens is sharp and it handles well.........

DH

From: "John Stewart" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Demand for TLR's - New Seagulls
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998

The camera is available in the US in black for $139. One interesting point: A US catalog store ("Porter's") claimed to be directly importing a $75 Rolleicord copy that was all in Chinese. One translation was "Great Central."

This camera was like the cheaper Seagull with knob wind and dual format, but had speeds to 1/500th!

John

Dr.-Ing. A. Irmer wrote

>Went this morning to a local photoshop somewhere in Germany and saw
> new Seagull TLR cameras.
>
>It is called "BIG Twin 3", lens is "Tessalith" (whatever this means,
> maybe reminding the buyer on Zeiss Tessar lenses) and the camera
> looks really nice.
>The shutter is the same of older Seagull 4 with speeds up to
> 1/300 s.
>Price is 299,00 DM, there is also a "Blue Edition" at 399,00 DM.
>
>The company improved the quality of the cameras, e. g.
> there is a film transport crank (Seagull 4 had a knob).
>It looks nice, but I can't tell if the optical quality of the
> lens is satisfying.
>Maybe I should ask for shooting a roll of film with it ...
>
>Regards
> A. Irmer

[Ed. note: the price difference is startling!]

From: [email protected] (BOO1303)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull 4A-103
Date: 16 Sep 1998

Hi:

If available, get a copy of Photo Answer Magazine. The September issue has a hands on article onn this camera. They selected two users to shoot with it and rate it, they did'nt have much bad to say about the picture quality, but the handleing was not so liked......

DH

From Medium Format Digest:
From: rahim azhar [email protected]
Subject: Response to Current opinions of Seagull TLRs
Date: 1998-10-20

Hallo Brian,

I bought a Seagull 4A103 in Kuala Lumpur,Malaysia where I currently staying,Last week for RM 260.00(about USD 68.40).Direct from the camera shop after I load it with Kodak Gold 100 film,I head to the local lake garden for few test shots.

The index print is finally in my hands this afternoon and to my suprise the picture is as sharp as any of my photps taken with my SLR.I use my Nikon FM 10 camera to get the expose reading since exposure meter cost a bomb here in K.L.

Since the Seagull is marketed here without its acsessories (filters,lens hood etc.),my SKY look rather flat without being overexposed and there's traces of flares in one of the photos. How I wish I can get my hands on its polarizing filter and lens hood to improve the composition and quality of the photos taken. Yesterday I loaded it again,with Fuji velvia 100 this time and took photos of my wife and two kids in the park with expose reading coming from my Pentax MZ 10.AS soon as the slides were in my hands I,ll write to you again.

The Seagull is my first Medium Format Camera and so far I'm quite happy with it since its CHEAP and deliver GOOD results.

Thanks.
Rahim.

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Seagull TLR

...

Today I picked up a used, near-mint crank-advance Seagull TLR with case and lens cap for $40. As I already have three f2.8 Rollei TLR's, a C/M Hassey, and a Kiev 88 (now there's a winner?), I wanted the Seagull mostly as a shelf queen because it has Chinese writing at the top.

I knew before I bought it the crank sounds and feels like a coffee grinder, and I was told by a Singapore friend this is normal for a Seagull. The cloth/plastic "leatherette" is looks cheap and the genuine pigskin case is of borderline quality. The shutter on the 1-sec. setting snaps at about 3/4 second, and the dried out lubricant in the self-timer makes it necessary to give it a push about halfway through the cycle to get it to finish.

So much for the negatives. Now for the positives:

The thing actually has a cammed parallax compensator in the viewfinder, just like a Rollei. The Yashicas never did have parallax compensation. It also has a button to press which allows re-cocking on the exposed frame for intentional double exposures. The smooth-acting viewfinder has a flip-up magnifier, and the front spring-loaded front panel pushes in for conversion to a sportsfinder. The frame counter resets automatically when the back is opened and closed. The camera has an accessory shoe and a strobe socket.

On balance I am well pleased and impressed that such a camera could come out of China. I haven't run film through it but have a feeling it has a four- element, three group Tessar-knockoff lens that may be surprisingly good. Right now I wouldn't trade it for ten Lubitels. (Now THERE is a really cheap camera!)

I can't wait to see the looks on my Hassy-toting friends' faces when I whip out my trusty Seagull and start shooting.

Al Thompson, Huntington Beach, California.

From Medium Format Digest
From: Gene Crumpler [email protected]
Subject: Response to Budget MF: Which one, vote now
Date: 1999-01-19

The new seagull with the four element lens is available for a web price of $119 at calumetphoto.com! Scoop up a couple!

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Steve [email protected]
[1] Great Wall SLR
Date: Wed Jan 20 1999

Hi

I bought a Great Wall medium format camera - makes 12 or 16 shots on 120 film. It's quite a strange little beast - shaped kind of like a Mamiya 645, but not nearly as well made...but it is still quite sturdy.

I have used a semi-fisheye adapter on the lens, and that was a lot of fun. I also made an extension tube for close-ups, but that's about the extent of my "lenses" for this thing!

I considered attaching a telephoto aux. lens, but I don't think the quality would be very good - although it may be fine for portraits.

It has a 90mm lens, and uses a Leica threaded screw-mount. Do any of you know if there were ever any other lenses made for this camera? Do any of you own one of these cameras?

Thanks!

Steve

P.S. I paid $75 for it new, and it is well worth the money!

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Yan Chiou" [email protected]
[1] Re: Seagull 4B and 4A
Date: Mon Feb 08 1999

The 4B is a Rolleicord copy, the 4A is a Rolleiflex copy. the 4A has a handcrank winder.

I was in China last year and they had 4B's for 550rmb and 4A's for around 1000rmb, or approximately $65 and $120 respectively. There is an 18k gold plated special addition 4A for around $400.

....

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (lemonade)
[1] Re: Medium Camera for a Beginner: Is this reasonable?
Date: Fri Feb 19 1999

> Brian wrote:
> >
> > My interest is in taking portrait and fashion related photos.
> > My current decision is to buy a Contax Aria as my first
> > SLR and learn about the fundamentals of photography
> > with a pretty manual camera that has a line of high
> > quality lenses.  But I keep hearing that portraits are
> > mainly taken with medium format cameras.  Could
> > somebody suggest a course of action that I should
> > take in pursuing this interest (taking portraits)
> > and the reasons for your suggestion?

If you are interested in portraits, a 35mm set up is very far from ideal. My suggestion: order a Seagull TLR from www.calumetphoto.com for about $120-140 depending on the current pricing; and get a handheld lightmeter, either new or used. Recommendations: cheapest new measuring both incident and reflected light would be Gossen Pilot, about $70; or Sekonic Studio Master, about $170. Actually just about any reputable hand held light meter on the market today will be fine. Spend any left over money on some good photo books, like Ansel Adam's The Negative, Freeman Patterson's Photography for the Joy of it, any of many others.

Rationale:

- 35mm SLR's are bad for portraits because

1) you have the camera at eye level and are staring at the subject, making them uncomfortable;

2) The mirror flips up at the moment of exposure, so you never know if your subject blinked, changed expression, whatever;

3) If the camera is electronic, the shutter may not be very responsive, i.e. it doesn't go off quite when you press the button, again making it more likely to miss the photo. Contax's are usually pretty good about that though, don't know about the Aria.

4) Dinky little postage stamp negatives are no fun in the darkroom and don't give the same quality.

-The Seagull or similar cameras (those others are only available used or at exhorbitant prices) are good for portraits because

0) Free from the tyranny of batteries

1) You hold the camera at waist level and are not staring down your subject;

2) No image blackout at the moment of exposure;

3) You can use electronic flash at any shutter speed;

4) They are quiet, vibration free, easy to hold steady during exposure;

5) They are very unobtrusive and don't call attention to themselves or you

6) You compose the image on a large groundglass screen which gives you a much better visualization of the final images;

7) You work slower, more methodically, are more involved in creating the image, and the quality of the results, both technically and aesthetically, will blow away any 35mm, even the most expensive. Don't have all those fancy features for you to fiddle with and so miss all the best pictures because you were too busy trying to decide which of the 246 different modes your camera should be in, or you got distracted by all those blinking lights...

8) In short, you will learn a lot more about photography and likely take better pictures.

They are not without their disadvantages though:

1) Only one fixed lens
2) Closest focus about 1 meter
3) Use odd filter sizes that require adaptors
4) The Seagull is solid but very, very, very far from jewel-like;
5) Don't have all those fancy features
5) and assorted other minor peculiarities.

Normally I say rent before buying but the Seagull is inexpensive enough that this advice makes no sense with regard to it.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Ed Liu [email protected]
[1] Re: MF-Seagull-oppinions please
Date: Tue Feb 23 1999

I enlarged one photo taken by a Seagull 4A 103 (the latest model) to 20x30. The center is very sharp, the edge blurs a bit at this magnification. I read one report from the most popular Chinese photo magazine comparing a Seagull 4A with Yashica 124G.

The author claimed the resolution was identical at f8-f11, but Yashica had a very small edge when wide open and f22.

Seagull's focus screen is much brighter, much easier to focus than Yashica, but its craftmanship is rather crude.

I have a brand new, never used Seagull 4A 103, a replacement of the original one which was broken. Let me know if you're interested. After failed attempt to fi x the broken Seagull myself, I bought a Yashica instead. Fortunately and out of my expectation, the dealer in Beijing still replaced it.

Ed

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (Ryan Shawgo)
[1] Re: MF-Seagull-oppinions please
Date: Tue Feb 23 1999

I purchased a used seagull about 8 months ago at a photoshow in St. Louis for $40, not a bad price for the results. Shutterspeeds range from 1-s to 1/300 and F: 3.5-22. I have not done a lot of testing to determine sharpness as a function of f-stop, but just because its a cheap camera does not mean it will give cheap results. I have been very happy with it. Eventually I woudl perfer to get a MF camera that does not require separate steps for film advance and shutter cock, I occassionaly leave a frame blank or double expose one.

Best of luck

Ryan

Ryan Shawgo Photography
http://www.silver-pixel.net/shawgo

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: MF-Seagull-oppinions please
Date: Tue Feb 23 1999

I have a Pearl River TLR, essentially a Seagul with a different name. I've run several rolls of film through it now and have been quite pleased with the results.

Rad

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (lemonade)
[1] Re: MF-Seagull-oppinions please
Date: Sat Feb 27 1999

[email protected] wrote:

> alternative...my question is; who has this camera???...the only on-line
> source I have seen is Calumet...any help appreciated...

Well if you want to pay $30-50 more, you can go to Wal-Mart online and search for "reflex 66". They have it under the name "Kalimar".

The Seagull got excellent reviews in both one of the British mags- can't remember which one, maybe Practical Photography- where they said it blew away all 35mm. In phototechniques, they rated it as one of the 25 best current cameras.

It is not superfine machinery, but it will do the job at a bargain price.

--

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (Photo Dude)
[1] Re: MF-Seagull-oppinions please
Date: Wed Feb 24 1999
[email protected] (Rolleimjc) wrote:

>I'm thinking of buying another MF, but do not have much money.  I've  seen ads
>for the Seagull and am surprised by how cheap it is for a new one.  I will
>mostly use it as a back up for my ole Rollei and do mostly landscape and
>portrait.  Would those of you who have used this camera mind giving me your
>opinion?  F-stops--do they go from 22 to 3.5?  I have heard some say  that the
>lens is surprisingly sharp?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rolleimjc

Just bought one a week ago($120 from Calumet) based on the Photo Techniques article and so far am quite happy! It's the WWSC model.

I shot a test roll and the negs are quite sharp. I find the craftsmanship surprisingly good considering the price. The only problem I've found so far is that the self-timer occasionally sticks. But other than that...

It's easy to load.
The shutter cocks when you advance the film and stops precisely at each frame.
Bright viewfinder.
F3.5-F22.
It has a hot shoe on the side, and a PC terminal...both work.
It has a cable release shutter.

All in all, it is an outstanding bargain and I highly recomend it. But keep in mind that this is my first MF camera and have nothing to compare it to. But everything works and the negs are sharp, so...

Good Luck!

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Advice- Best inexpensive TLR?
Date: Tue Feb 23 1999

I have a Chinese TLR called a Pearl River that I picked up at a Washington DC camera show for a rediculously low price because the dealer was tired of hauling it around. It's pretty identical to the older Seagul TLR's and takes great pictures. I recently used it to do a portrait shoot at my church. The pictures came out great.

Porter's (http://www.porters.com/), Calumet Photo (http://www.calumetphoto.com/), and believe it or not Wal-Mart (http://www.wal-mart.com/) are selling the latest Chinese TLR camera. It looks like the old Rollei TLR that has a crank on the side for winding the film. Porter's and Wal-mart sell it as the Kalimar Reflex 66. Calumet sells it under the Seagul name. Prices range from $120-$190 US.

Rad

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: CHC [email protected]
[1] Re: MF beginners look here
Date: Mon Mar 01 1999

Try Santa Fe WorkShops. They have the Seagull TLR for 129.95 but you will have to call them, the camera is not listed on the webpage store.

http://www.sfworkshop.com/
Santa Fe WorkShops store phone # - (505) 983-1400

Taj wrote:

> Sorry the link is not accurate.  But that was supposed to be the Link to
> Walmart, who is selling the chinese TLR for $169.  But callumet is selling
> the seagull for only $120.
>
> http://www.calumetphoto.com/
> (search for seagull)
>
> http://wmonline.wal-mart.com
> (search for reflex 66)

Mini-Review of Seagull TLR

Hi there,

I read not too long ago on this group about Calumet selling new Seagulls 120 TLR's for around $120. At that price I figured, what could go wrong?, and ordered one.

I've had it for a little over a week, and I will be sending it back, but it's not a bad camera for the price. Here are some impressions.

It has a metal body, which is nice. It doesn't feel "solid", but it's not flimsy either. It would probably last a while.

The taking lens has 3 elements in three groups. 75mm f3.5-f22. The viewing lens is the same focal length, but f2.8, so the image on the focusing screen is fairly bright. There's a built-in loupe you can pop-up and use to help focusing. The focusing knob turns very smoothly and you could say it's a little over-dampened, at least on the example I received. You can focus from about a meter to infinity.

Vignetting with slide film (I shot a couple of Fuji Provia 100 rolls) is noticeable. At f3.5, is very noticeable. At f8 you can notice it when smooth colored objects are on the corners (say, the sky on a landscape shot). It's still noticeable at f22, even, though at this aperture only on the very corners. Images are fairly sharp in the center and corners, though, and contrast seems adequate. Flare can be a real problem though. I didn't have any kind of hood, but shading the lens with my hand helped a lot.

There's a host shoe, and a PC connector. There's also a fiveish second self-timer. The tripod mount is the standard 1/4"-20.

Shutter speeds go from 1 second to 1/300, plus B. With a leaf shutter, the flash syncs at all speeds. You can fire the shutter multiple times on the same frame.

It weighs just about two pounds. The manual that comes with it is barely adequate, but this is a very simple camera. You can't blame the manual or its sometimes poor translation for your bad pictures :)

So, why am I sending it back?

It only takes 120 film, despite the fact that the catalog I have says it takes 120 and 220. There's no built-in meter (I used my Minolta Spot-F meter, which I usually carry in my camera bag, but it'd be nice to not absolutely need it). And, I came across a Yashicamat 124G for a decent price.

So... it's not a loser camera, I don't think. I'm new to this format, others more experienced in the medium may have a different opinion, but I thought I'd post this newbie perspective mini-review, given that at around $120, it seems to be a pretty good value.

-jav

From: "Stephe" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull 4B and 4A
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999

Fabian Wong wrote

>Gordon,
>
>From what I read on the Internet one has a 4 element Tessar like lens
>and the other a triplet. I'm combing the web for users experiences on
>the Seagull WSC-120 as I'm considering buying one.
>
>I'd be interested on your experiences with these cameras.
>
>[email protected]

I fixed the shutter on one of the older ones for a friend and while I had it, I tried it out. Is was OK optically but not as good as a 3.5 xenar rolleicord or a minoltacord and everything felt cheap. My main complaint would be a weak tripod mount. Hard to "nail" down the camera when the tripod mount is flimsy and since you need to shoot it at f11-f16 slow shutter speeds demand tripod use unless fast film is used.. But it did make pretty nice pictures that looked better than 35mm anything. I would spend an extra $50 though and find a beat up old rolleicord V or minoltacord and when you are ready to sell it you can always get what you paid for it..

Stephe

From: [email protected] (K H Tan)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull 4B and 4A
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999

Well, one retailer in Singapore mentions that the WWSC120 model (current black model with SEAGULL written in English) has a SIX element lens, intead of the 4 element Tessar on the previous 4A-1.

Dunno how true that is. It's still a 75mm/3.5 (maybe a 75mm Planar copy??) and the coating still looks like a weak one layer coating (much like the coating on my 210 convertible Symmar). Actually, I kinda prefer that they stick to simple Tessar type lenses as they would be easier to manufacture.

I figure that, since the built quality doesn't look like it has changed a whole lot from the 4A-1 (and the piece I saw had a crookedly glued on SEAGULL badge that I pointed out to the salesperson, and he subsequently decided to send it back to the distributor), an old clean Rolleicord with a Xenar or Tessar might be a better alternative for about the same price.

The 4B-1 is a early 'cord copy with a switchable 6x4.5 mask. This one might have had a triplet.

The 4A-1 is a early 'flex copy with no 6x4.5 mask option. My old 4A-1 had plenty of mechanical problems after a while, but other people seem to have no problems with theirs.

Both cameras are imminently usable, but I suggest you try to buy one used if you want to try it out- they can't be worth very much used.

All said, the 4A-1 actually makes for a great 6x6 travel camera - light, small, and cheap to lose if it ever gets stolen. Image quality is very very good for the price, really. The defunct Camera & Darkroom mag liked it very much in an old review, as they too liked the folding 6x6 Seagull of old.

From: "Bob Salomon" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Are there any filters or hoods that fit the Seagull?
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999

Which Seagull?

The 4 A uses 34mm screw-in filters and hoods
The 203 uses 36mm push on
The 205 with 50mm 2.8 uses 45mm screw in
The DF with 50mm 2.0 uses 52mm screw in

All of these screw in sizes are available from Heliopan as are adapters to convert them to other screw in sizes

--
[email protected] hpmarketingcorp.com

From: [email protected] (lemonade)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Are there any filters or hoods that fit the Seagull?
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999

[email protected] (JimS) wrote:

> Has anyone using the Seagull had any luck finding filters or hoods?
> If not, what size is the lense and is it possible to find step up
> rings or jury rig something to at least put a hood on?

The WWSC 120 uses 34mm filters. Good luck finding them outside of Shanghai. Heliopan does list them, but I've never found anyone who stocked them, and the special order prices I was quoted at my local shop were astronomical, as for B+W special order. I don't actually know if they knew what they were talking about though.

So: step up rings, available at B&H and elsewhere. You won't be able to use the double lens cap that comes with the Seagull though.

[Ed. note: regarding seagull for $120 TLR]
From: [email protected] (lemonade)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Affordable Medium Format Suggestions?
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999

"Karen C" [email protected] wrote:

> Anyone have any comments on just how good or bad the lenses are on this
> thing?    It says it has a hot shoe but does it have a Flash cord
> connection?

It has both hot shoe and PC sync terminal. How good the lens: it's sharp, especially at smaller apertures. Some have complained about too much vignetting in the corners.

According to the British photo mags that reviewed it, the results will still blow away anything from a Nikon F5. They rated it as basically the ideal family snapshot camera. The same mag, or was it photo techniques, also rated it as one of the 25 best cameras made today.

But don't let this overhype you: while evidently made with concern and care, there are obvious, if carefully thought, economizations. In other words, while solid overall, there are some cheap aspects: tinny film advance lever, some binding in the focus mechanism, etc. Lens is not multicoated, if coated at all. Still worthwhile though.

--

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999
From: "Paulus S.Tjahjadi" [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: info: new URL

Hi Robert!,

Please take a look at this website:

http://www.eisa.net.au/~shutter/

This store, located in Camberwell (near Melbourne) Australia sell Seagull TLR cameras.

They import those cameras directly from China.

Regards,
Paulus Susilo Tjahjadi

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (Larrye Edye)
[1] Re: Seagull 6x6 TLR Camera
Date: Wed Sep 22 1999

34mm screw in. Hard to find, a step up adaptor in 34mm to 46mm available at B&H

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Radimus [email protected]
[1] Re: Seagull?
Date: Thu Sep 30 1999

A decent camera. The only problem I know about them is that their film advance mechs are a little weak, so be gentle. Due to that, you might want to consider a different vendor. I've read several posts from people who bought Seagulls from Calumet and couldn't get warranty service.

Wal-Mart sells the same camera as the Kalimar Reflex 66 for $152, and advertise a one year warranty with it:

http://wmonline.wal-mart.com/cgi-bin/vstore/wm/wmonline.exe?U+GN+BIGIMG:653183000604+SEA:17727941+G:0.0.0.000

If that link doesn't work just go here and search for "reflex.":

http://wmonline.wal-mart.com

Rad

From Rollei List:
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999

From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Non Rollei: Advice needed

---------

>From: "Roger M. Wiser" [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Rollei] Non Rollei:  Advice needed
>Date: Thu, Oct 7, 1999, 8:30 PM
>

> I had a Yashicmat 124G in very good condition and sold it for $250. It  seems
> that wedding photographers around the smaller communities are looking for
> them. I never really cared for mine and was glad to sell it.  
>
> A lcoal repairman said that the gears in the film drive mechanism is not as
> durable as the Rollei. I too much prefer a Rolleicord as a lower priced
> camera.

I wish I still had all the old TLRs that passed through my hands when I had camera stores. I could sell them and retire!!! Couldn't get more than $35- 40 for them in those days.

I've had Yashicamats apart and in general they are reasonably well made. The gears may be softer than Rollei gears, I don't know.

I've got several TLRs from China in my collection of Chinese cameras. The Seagull 4A and 4A-1 (not the common 4A-103) are pretty good copies of Rollei, but their weak link is the Chinese shutter. It only goes to 1/300 and is not very durable. When the shutter is working, a Seagull 4A or 4A-1 is a darned good picture taker. The 4A series have Tessar type Haiou lenses, while the 4A-103 and 4B have three element lenses.

I've also got some folding seagull 6 X 6 cameras which are loosely copied from Ikontas with the same lenses, and they are decent picture takers, but suffer from the same shutter weakness.

Also have a couple Great Wall DF cameras which are 6 X 6 SLR cameras with, of all things, Leica thread lens mount. I tried to sell one on eBay a while back but nobody knew what it was and there were no bids at all.

Bob

From: [email protected] (Larrye Edye)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Looking for the First cheap Medium-Format
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999

I have a Seagull WSCC I bought as a toy and it surprised me with its performance. It seems to be well built and decent finish. At f8 f11 I can not tell the deference between it and my Rollie in Sharpness. The view finder is much brighter than any SLR that I have owned. Most people on the net will tell you to buy a used Rollie, most I have seen hae been well used by pros in the past and have gosh knows how many rolls of run through them.

Seagull Models Notes

>for the Seagull 6x6 TLR. At $140, it's certainly the right price, but I
>want to know what I'm giving up for that affordability. Any advice out
>there?

I think some models of the Seagulls are great value for money (and cool !). For your information, there are several version of the Seagulls...

1) The 4B series - these have a knob for film advance and 3-elements lens. Better avoid these as the better ones are not much more expensive.

2) 4A series. There are 3 in this series and the lack of obvious markings can be a pitfall. The 4A series is characterised be a crank for film advance.

a) The 4A - I think this was the original. It has a 3-element lens.

b) 4A-103 and 4A-1. Contructively, these are better than the older 4A with better dust cover and a Fresnel lens in the viewfinder. The 4A-103 has a 3-element lens and the 4A-1 has a 4-element Tessar-type lens. Go for the 4A-1 if you can find it. I have the 4A-103 (Couldn't find the 4-element model). You can distinguish the 4A-1 from the 4A-103 from the serial number on top of the camera.

The above 1) and 2) have the Chinese character for Seagull on the front.

3) The WWSC 120 series. I have only seen pictures of these and due to their relatively higher prices, most local shops here don't stock these but I think they're 'easier' to find in the US.

The WWSC 120 series are suppose to be quite well built with a split-image viewfinder and a smoother focusing mechanism.

There are actually 2 versions of the WWSC 120 (this is from a reputable source).

There is a version with a 'V' marking somewhere that has a 3-element lens and one with an 'S' marking somewhere that has a 4-element Tessar-type lens.

The best of the above is the WWSC 120 'S'. (There is even a gold plated anniversary edition of this !) I would just like to point out that a lot of people are very happy with the WWSC 120 series. I don't have any problem with the 4A-103 either.

BTW, I'm not sure if Calumet relabels the Seagulls to their own name or how you can check for the different versions above on relabelled ones. Also, I would be rather wary of buying these cameras sight unseen as you really need to thoroughly check the camera out first for any 'defects' or rough workmanship.

The Seagulls take 34mm filters and you need to buy 2 :-)

From: Bruce William Johnson [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagulls No More???
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999

It is my understanding that ORIENTAL PHOTO bought out Seagull. I do not know any of the details but you may want to take a look at the ORIENTAL PHOTO web site.

http://www.orientalphoto.co.jp/english/

Bruce W. Johnson

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagulls No More???
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999

> Searching for any and all info on the Seagull, I keep coming across
> references to articles claiming the last Seagull has left the building,
> that production has ended...problem is, I can only find references to
> these articles, and not the articles themselves...

Production of the Seagull cameras had in fact been oficially terminated, some time ago.

That's when people like German mail order dealer Brenner stepped in and convinced the Chinese to resume production, albeit under various guises and house-labels such as the B.I.G. cameras now sold by Brenner in a succession of various leather/colour schemes - a quite pathetic attempt at duplicating the nonsense of endless 'last batches' and a cornucopia of 'special editions' of a particular TLR from Braunschweig, Germany, but if there are people willing to pay for it, they have my blessing, if ever that's needed... ;)

Cheers,
Ralf

--

From: "Buttercup" buttercup@buttercup
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagulls No More???
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999

Kalimar in the US has done the same thing. When Seagulls are "discontinued" maybe a year ago, Kalimar introduced some vaguely referenced "improved" Seagull for $50-$60 more.

Although the Seagull doesn't match up to used Yashica, Minolta, or Rollei TLRs, I think that they could serve some usefulness for beginning photography classes, such as junior high school age.

Nowadays, it *seems* that a lot of people are clueless as to why anyone would want to learn how to use mechanical cameras. (That guess is based on questions posed on other newsgroups.)

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000
From: Richard [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull

Not surprising that they look alike. China has a long (recent anyway) history of copying in the manufacturing industry of many, many items. The Seagulls were copies of the Rolleiflexes in the first place. Seagull is from Shanghai and Pearl River is from Guangzhou. Pearl River is known for fairly poor glass while Seagull at least has the potential of having fair to good glass. Both can be inconsistent in the quality area. Which, again, is why they are so cheap. But get a hold of a good one and you've got an excellent camera at a great price.

[email protected] wrote:

>  > I have read that he 4B have better lenses than the 4A, although the 4A
>  > do look more advanced and have better winding mechanisms.
>  >
>  > I also heard from many here in China, and from my looking at them (but
>  > I have never used one), that the Pearl River cameras are garbage and
>  > that they are not the same as the Seagull.
>
> Hmmm.  I've seen them all, including my current non-export "China" or "Great
> Central.  And with NO JOKE intended, they all look alike to me.
>
> John

--
[email protected]
(CHANGE "asla" to "asia" to send email)

Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Seagull

 > I think that the Seagull 4A (which is the deluxe Rolleiflex style with wind
 > crank) comes more frequently with the 3 element taking lens,
 > but is also less commonly available with a 4 element lens.
 > I would like to know if this is true and how would one know the difference when
 > examining the camera. Somewhere (?) I have an
 > instruction booklet from the Seagull 4A mentioning t

I believe there will be something in the lens engraving. For example, my "China" TLR has a lens marked SFJ-3. If it were a four element version, it would probably be SFJ-4.

John

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Users list digest V6 #82

----------

>From: Jon Hart 
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Users list digest V6 #82
>Date: Sat, Jan 15, 2000, 9:50 PM
>
>      I have found the shutter linkage with the crank
> to be rather less than desirable. They jam with
> depressing regularity. I have one now, shutter jammed,
> crank whirling off to eternity. Useless.

Depends. I have a ten year old one which works perfectly. It's like the Kiev cameras, if you get a good one it can be very good.

The real weak link in all of them is the Haiou shutter, which has a cocking part which is poorly designed and breaks rather easily. Once this breaks the shutter is dead. No repair parts are available except by stripping other cameras.

I have put together something of a collection of Chinese cameras, including several different TLRs, a bunch of 35mm point and shoots, some of the 35mm SLRs and several of the Seagull folding 120 rangefinder cameras. These, unfortunately, use the same shutter and are frequently found with dead shutters. Oh well, they look pretty.

>      The one I have is still perking along and the 
> mask for 4.5X6 cm works well. Although the lens is a
> three-element design, it functions fairly well at
> apertures of f/8 to f/16. The weird part of Seagulls
> is that their focussing screens are very bright and
> useful even if one ignores the focussing aid, such as
> it is. I took the one out of my 4B to use in my
> Rolleicord II, since the groundglass sucked so bad and
> use the one from the jammed 4A-103 in the 4B! IMHO,
> the fact that one has to cock the shutter in the 4B
> adds to the reliability and longevity factors as far
> as the shutter goes. (if you are curious as to why I
> didn't just use the screen from the jammed camera for
> the Rolleicord, it didn't fit, too large)

The 4A series is built like the Rolleiflexes with a screen that is taller than wide. This allows for the parallax masking under the screen. This makes them too big for Rolleicords, but they will fit Rolleiflexes.

Those screens are so good because of a deal with Minolta, who made the molds for them. Seagull, in turn, built the cheapest Minolta SLR cameras for some time. I understand that Minolta bought the factory and now runs it as a subsidiary. If they could only institute Japanese style quality control they would have some winners on their hands. BTW, there was a short lived project in which Seagull cameras were fitted with Japanese Seiko shutters, but this made the price far too high and these did not last long in the marketplace. I wanted one for my collection, but so far have not been able to find one and it is possible that the only ones really made were the handful of prototypes shown at PMA and photokina.

Bob

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Users list digest V6 #82

Yes, the Seagull 35mm SLR is the DF-1. This can be confusing, though, since DF seems to be a Chinese abbreviation for SLR and there is a Great Wall DF-1 and Peafowl DF-1 also, and may be others with that designation. The Seagull and Peafowl, although different and from different factories, are both copied from Minolta SR-1, and have Minolta lens mounts. There was a very short run of a camera called DF-1 ETM with a built in open aperture meter using LED readouts. I bought two of those from the Chinese out of their booth at PMA one year and have never seen or heard of another. Although still a Minolta mount the linkage which feeds aperture info to the meter is different, so Minolta lenses will not couple.

There was a very nice Chinese rangefinder camera with Leica M bayonet made in small production as well as three lenses. Also a camera called East Wind which was a medium format SLR with Hasselblad 500 style lens mount and lenses. Jack Naylor has the only working one of these I have seen. Looks like a cross between a Hasselblad and an old Bronica.

I've never seen a Chinese SLR with Nikon mount. Doesn't mean there weren't any, though. The Kiev 35mm SLR cameras, of which the 19-M seems to be the latest, have Nikon mount and the most recent ones with meters use Nikon AI mount and work fine with Nikon lenses. I have one which I picked up from Kiev USA, and it works pretty well. Finish is sorta rough, though.

There was also a German camera with Nikon mount! It was a variant of the Regula Reflex CTL-2000 made by the people at the King and Bauser factory in the Black Forest. Very nice camera, but I think Nikon blocked it from sale in many countries and it did not last long. The Pentax/Praktica mount version was around much longer. I used to have one of those and it was built like a Leicaflex.

Bob

----------

>From: Jon Hart 
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Users list digest V6 #82
>Date: Sun, Jan 16, 2000, 11:36 AM
>

>
>      As Arte Johnson used to say, Verrry Interesting.
> I felt that the screens were kinda foreign to the
> cameras in some way, but didn't know of their
> pedigree. I remember an article in Shutterbug a long 
> time ago describing the Seagull SLR (DF-1, I think)
> that had a Minolta mount. I seem to remember that they
> made one with a Nikon mount, also. I probably have
> things confused about that, but age does funny
> things....    I believe you are right about the
> quality control and its affect, however, I wouldn't
> look for it to happen any time soon with the turmoil
> that is happening now and still to come. More likely,
> the Chinese will start from scratch in their own
> factories and build up to better things. I think the
> "experiment" with cooperation with the Japanese may be
> a chimera given the usual Japanese business practices
> in the Pacific Rim that have caused some hard feelings
> amongst the Third World nations regarding exploitation
> of natural resources and labor. Also the Chinese are a
> rather dynamic group that will want to thrust
> themselves to the forefront on their own terms. They 
> have proven to be rather resourceful even with a
> dinosaur Communist government.
>
> With regards,
> Jon
> from Deepinaharta, Georgia 

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] RE: chinese cameras

> Has anyone tried to put a focusing screen from one of these guys into a
> 'flex or 'cord? The screens seem pretty decent and bright, and could
> probably be picked up from parts for short money...
>
>
> Eric Goldstein 

Yes, this is easily done. Screens from 4A series will fit older Rolleiflex cameras (without flip up screen frame) and those from 4B series will fit Rolleicords. They are very bright screens designed by Minolta and made in China with Minolta molds. There are many dead Seagull cameras around so this is maybe the only good part on some and should be cheap.

You need 4A-1 or 4A-103 or 4B-1 for the modern screen. Older ones have plain ground glass.

Bob

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000

[email protected] wrote:

> >I have a Seagull reflex model 4A, which I have yet to use.
> >
> >Which model has the 4 element lens the 4A or the 4B - do you know
> >which is which? Please write back.
>
> There are quite a few generations of Seagull TLRs around. I only know
> the following though and I think it is a good start...
> Forget about the 4Bs - they are quite old and have a knob for film
> advance. The model to avoid if you're buying a Seagull now.
>
> NB: the different lenses mentioned below refer to the taking lens. All
> the viewing lenses are 3G3E design.
>
> Now with the 4As. These have Chinese characters for Seagull on the
> front of the camera. The 4As use a crank for film advance. One model
> has a 3G3E (3 groups 3 elements) lens and the other a 3G4E (Tessar
> copy) lens. If my recollection is correct, the manual mentions the
> 4A-103 as the 3G3E model and the 4A-1 as the 3G4E model. Check the top
> of the camera for the prefix to the serial number to find out which
> model you actually have. I have a 4A-103 and found it to be quite
> good. This generation of 4A-1xx have strap lugs similar to a
> Hasselblad's (ie. not the slit type that you can thread a strap
> through, unlike that of the WWSC 120 below. I have not idea what you
> call this design).
>
> The latest generation is the highly rated and sought after WWSC 120.
> Again there are at least 2 models. Build quality is a bit better than
> the previous generation 4As in having a smoother focusing action and
> slightly better finish. Rolleiflex they definitely ain't. They're also
> mainly black and come packaged with a strap in a very cool looking
> shinny black box with Frech blue satin lining (Has to be seen to
> believe. Absolutely first class presentation. Even the F5 doesn't come
> in such a nice box). There is some changes to the gearing in that you
> are not suppose to change the shutter speed setting after you've
> cocked the shutter or you'll wreck the gears (the 4A-1 and 4A-103
> didn't have this). This BTW is not mentioned in the manual. (Actually,
> on mine, after you've cocked the shutter the shutter speed CAN be set
> until 1/30 at which point there will be great resistance. Don't force
> anything and I'm trying to get into the good habit of setting the
> exposure before cocking the shutter). Anyway, with the latest
> variation (I think) of the WWSC 120, the lens type is engraved on the
> rim of the lens. eg. 3G4E for 3 groups 4 elements so it is easy to
> tell. The 3G4E model apparently HAD an 'S' logo (? Super) on top and
> the 3G3E model a V logo (? Value ). However, I just bought what  think
> is a latter modification of the 3G4E model in that it has a V logo on
> top but now has a lock on the shutter release (Just like a Rolleiflex)
> :-). The model used for illustration in the manual of the WWSC 120 is
> the 3E4E model with the S logo. The 3G3E WWSC 120 is unchanged and
> doesn't have a shutter release lock. If you come across a WWSC 120
> that doesn't have the lens type engraved on the lens, identify your
> lens type by the V or S logo. BTW, my WWSC 120 has a tag calling it
> the 4A-107.
>
> Lastly, there is a gold plated edition of the WWSC but I haven't
> examined this in detail because it costs about 3 times the price of a
> used Rolleiflex with the Scheider Xenotar lens. What a joke.
>
> That's all. BTW, remember that the parts that fall out of a Seagull
> represent some of the best in Chinese engineering. :-)

The WWSC 120 I purchased from Calumet has a split screen fresnel lens focusing aid in the viewfinder. I don't know if this is now standard but it is a BIG improvement over previous Chinese TLR models with only a plain ground glass viewfinder.

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000

....

Per the above posting,
I checked the lenses on my WWSC 120 purchased through Calumet Photographic. The lenses are marked Haiou but without the markings listed in your post. The f2.8 viewing lens is marked SA-96, the f3.5 lens is marked SA-92. The only other marking is the 5 digit serial number (no letters) on the viewing hood.

Any suggestions as to how to determine the lens construction per the SA-92 and SA-96 numbers?

The english language owners booklet suggests that the f3.5 lens on my camera is the standard 3 group, 3 element lens- but also indicates the (ledgendary and mythical?) 4 element lens is produced.

Re: flash sync...the WWSC 120 instruction booklet gives flash sync as between 1/60 and 1/125th of a sec., though when I purchased the camera I checked sync and found the lens shutter open when the flash popped at 1/300th as well as all others.

My camera also has a fresnel lens with a split field, spot focusing area.I don't know if this is now standard, but it is a BIG improvement over the plain ground glass viewfinder screen. The British magazines never mentioned this feature on a WWSC 120.

Popular Photography (May 1972) published a review of the Seagull 4A as well as the 35mm DF, the medium format rangefinder model 203 and the 35mm rangefinder model 205. The only camera I ever examined was the 4A. The review did an excellent job of pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of that model.

FYI: the August 1997 Camera Shopper, issue 77 had an article on the Pearl River and Seagull 35mm SLR cameras.

Calumet Photgraphic's website still lists the WWSC 120 camera (as of 02-20-000 on their site.

From: [email protected] (Lim Meng Shi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000

>Popular Photography (May 1972) published a review of the Seagull 4A as
>well as the 35mm DF, the medium format rangefinder model 203 and the
>35mm rangefinder model 205. The only camera I ever examined was the 4A.
>The review did an excellent job of pointing out the strengths and
>weaknesses of that model.

The rangefinders sound interesting in either format. I wonder if they're still in production. With the current 'craze' in RF, I hope they would re-introduce an M mount compatible RF :-)

From: [email protected] (Lim Meng Shi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000

>I just received one of these from Calumet that I ordered out of
>curiousity. The box is indeed very cool -- better than the one Leica
>provides :-). The engraving on the lens is : "3-G 3-E" followed by
>SA-97. Looks like a copy of the Rolleiflex T model.
>
>Is the four-element model a myth?

Not a myth as I own a 4-element model (3G-4E on the lens) of the WWSC 120. That is one of the problems with buying this camera sight unseen - you either end up with the 3-element model because the seller doesn't know enough about the variation or you end up with a model with other elements (ie. dust or dirt) inside the lens. :-) The 3G4E model is generally a bit more expensive and places like Calumet may not stock it. I have seen nothing in most ads to suggest that they know about the different models.

Always inspect this camera properly first before buying. Set the shutter on bulb and aperture wide open. Then cock the shutter and look through the taking lens with the film back open to check for any contamination. Also, never adjust the shutter speeds after you've cocked it.

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000
From: "M.W.R.Ng" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull

FLEXARET2 wrote:

> from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman)  1-20-2000
>
> I have a Seagull reflex model 4A, which I have yet to use.
>
> Which model has the 4 element lens the 4A or the 4B - do you know
> which is which? Please write back.

I have a Seagull 4B 6x6 TLR. I usually use Ektarchrome 100HC slide film with it. It comes with a mask to convert to 645 format It produces superb picture especially at f8 and f11. The contrast is lower at full aperture f3.5 but is still very acceptable and certainly usable. I had it new since 1985 and it is still in as new working condition. I paid US$50 for it.

I think it is one of the best beginer 6x6. Many of the picture taken by this camera were printed on the "People's Magazine" in China read by more than 1 billion people.

As far as I know, both Seagull 4A and 4B use the same Haiou 3.5/75 coated lens.

I heard people said the lens was East German Optics or copy. The lens is of 3 groups 3 elements Cooke Triplet design, the predecessor of the famous Zeiss Tessar which is 3 groups 4 element

The differences between the two models are in the film winding and focussing mechanism.

The 4A is more advance and is a little bit dearer.

I hope the information help you

Richard

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000
From: Philip Wang [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull

Pearl River is another brand. Seagull is from Shanghai, Pearl River is from Guangdong which is close to Hong Kong. Usually Seagull cameras are better cameras than other brands from China - especially true 10 or 20 years ago.

- philip

Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000
From: "M.W.R.Ng" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Chinese Seagull TLR Camera

Kar Yan Mak wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I am very interested in purchasing a new Seagull TLR.  Does anyone know where I
> can find a Seagull WWSC-120, new (not used), for a decent price?  So far, I
> only know that Calumet Photographic sells it for $140, but I've read that some
> people got it for $70-80.  Sorry for my ignorance, but I'd appreciate if
> someone could guide me as I'm sort of new to MF and where to shop.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> Kar Yan Mak
> http://www.kyphoto.com 

Kar Yan

I bought a new Seagull TLR for HK$300 (~ US$40) in 1985 in Hong Kong in a Chinese Product Superstore. The Yue Wah at Nathan Road, Kowloon has a good stock of Chinese cameras. I think new models are available there. I do not know the price now, should not be much higher. I suggest you to ask your friends there to buy one for you and post it to the states.

Check the total cost to see if it is worthwhile. The images are very good at f8 but still very acceptable at f3.5. The camera is simple, very reliable, no problems for years. I kept it very well and it is still like new. I got very beautiful colour slides from the camera.

The only drawback is that the lenses are not interchangable like the Mamiya TLR. Parallax error is difficult to estimate at close range

Good luck.

Regards

Richard

Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000
From: Radimus [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Chinese Seagull TLR Camera

The Seagull TLR's that were sold new for $70-80 were a different, older model. I think it was called the Seagull 4-A or the Pearl River 4-S. These were Rolleicord copies with the simple knob wind and manually cocked shutter. The WWSC-120 is a Rolleiflex copy with the crank.

The older model was much more reliable than the new one due to its simplicity. To advance you turned the knob attached to the take-up spool and watched for the next frame number in a red window on the back. The new model has gained a reputation for having a weak advance mechanism. It's not uncommon for someone who buys one of these to have to exchange it within a few months.

If you want to get a Chinese TLR just to see if you like medium format, try getting one of the older types in working condition instead of buying the new one. I honestly can't recommend the new Seagull. You can usually get a Seagull 4-A or Pearl River 4-S for about $50 off eBay. If you're going to spend more than $100 I'd recommend trying to get a used Yashica, Minolta, or Rollei TLR.

Rad

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000
From: [email protected] (Lim Meng Shi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Chinese Seagull TLR Camera

>I am very interested in purchasing a new Seagull TLR.  Does anyone know where I
>can find a Seagull WWSC-120, new (not used), for a decent price?  So far, I
>only know that Calumet Photographic sells it for $140, but I've read that some
>people got it for $70-80.  Sorry for my ignorance, but I'd appreciate if
>someone could guide me as I'm sort of new to MF and where to shop.

This is one camera that you would NOT want to buy mail-order as the quality control is not very consistent and most sellers don't know the different variations of the WWSC 120. Please go to Dejanews and check my previous postings regarding the various different models.

It is best if you could find a dealer at which you can inspect the several WWSC 120 to choose one that has the best quality (ie. no dust in the lens elements etc). The WWSC 120 with the 3 groups 4 element lens (A Tessar copy) is the best. Remember: With the WWSC 120, DO NOT adjust the shutter setting after you have cocked the shutter ot you'll strip the gear.

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000
From: Rolfe Tessem [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Chinese Seagull TLR Camera

Lim Meng Shi wrote:

> >I am very interested in purchasing a new Seagull TLR.  Does anyone know where I
> >can find a Seagull WWSC-120, new (not used), for a decent price?  So far, I
> >only know that Calumet Photographic sells it for $140, but I've read that some
> >people got it for $70-80.  Sorry for my ignorance, but I'd appreciate if
> >someone could guide me as I'm sort of new to MF and where to shop.
>
> This is one camera that you would NOT want to buy mail-order as the
> quality control is not very consistent and most sellers don't know the
> different variations of the WWSC 120. Please go to Dejanews and check
> my previous postings regarding the various different models.

I bought one of the current offerings from Calumet a couple of months ago due mainly to curiosity. I often am asked to recommend a camera to students, etc. and my personal feeling is that a 2 1/4 TLR is a good choice. Therefore, I was interested to check out one of the new Seagulls offered by Calumet to see if it was junk, or whatever. I have several Rollei TLR's that I use regularly, so I am familiar with that benchmark.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Seagull. The build quality seems to me to be approximately that of the Yashica TLR, although the lens I received in mine is a three-element design. Overall, it seems to be an attempt to copy the Rolleiflex T model. It has crank film advance, but the shutter and aperture adjustments are on the side of the taking lens as on the Rolleiflex T and the Rolleicord.

So far, I've put about a dozen rolls of reveral film though the camera and examined them on a lightbox. Most of these are exteriors shot at f8 or smaller -- I've had no occasion to use the camera at or near maximum aperture. At the smaller apertures, the sharpness and contrast is excellent -- I'm sure a side by side comparsion would yield differences between it and a Rollei or Hasselblad, but this is no junk camera.

My subjective opinion is that the images are sharp at smaller apertures with "tangy" edges typical of Tessar designs, although I believe this is not actually a classic Tessar. To many, this is a desirable quality -- as always YMMV.

Obviously, over time, we'll see how robust the film transport proves to be but the Seagull, like all TLR's, is at it's heart a pretty simple design so there really isn't that much to go wrong.

--
Rolfe Tessem     |     Lucky Duck Productions, Inc.
[email protected]    |     96 Morton Street
(212) 463-0029   |     New York, NY 10014

WWSC - With Winding Shutter Cocking - and Model Notes

Hello Robert,

I would like to share some Seagull info with you.

It seems that some are confused with the WWSC models, this stands for "With Winding Shutter Cocking" by the hand crank.

There are two models; whereby the digits are not engraved on or in any part of the camera;

4A-105; 75/2.8(3E/3G) viewing lens and 75/3.5(3E/3G) taking lens.
4A-107; same viewing lens but taking lens is 75/3.5(4E/3G).

These are engraved on the lens rim. You can also tell them apart by looking on the top of the WL, "105" has a letter "S" and "107" has a "V" on it. Both are English "Seagull".

There is a discontinued 4A-104(the one Burt sent you) which was replaced by the 4A-107, differences are the English and Chinese character "Seagull"(that I believed the intention is to goes in the international market). An additional hotshoe, shutter lock lever and some minor modifications. According to a local vendor, 104 is also using a 75/3.5(4E/3G) taking lens. But I do not know if there is any US models with different names. These three are capable of multiple exposure.

My 4A-107 had a shutter problem and I sent it to their distributor, they did a nice job and now it only rotates approximately 260 degree with film for a frame. Before that, I have to spin a few rounds!

As for the 203(the one Burt sent you), I saw one exactly the same but it is a "Shanghai 203-I"(Made in Shanghai). I used to owned a "Seagull 203-I"(Made in China) without the exposure calculator but a hotshoe instead. Another piece I saw is a "Seagull 203-B" without any calculator nor hotshoe. All three has the same constructions and can do 6x6 and 645. The lens is quite sharp, but needs to stop down. All three also has the same S-111-2 on it, may be the parts number or maybe it says 3E/2G.

It seems that "Shanghai" are made in Shanghai and "Seagull" are made in China.

I learned it from a local vendor who is quite good with Chinese and Russian cameras.

Hope these are useful.

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000
From: Zhang Jim-FCHN176 [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Seagull Chinese Twin Lens Reflex Camera

I am reading the pages on Seagull Chinese Twin Lens Reflex Camera in Medium Format Home Page. The discussion is very interesting.

I just found a web site that talks about classic medium format camera built by China. That guy collected information for almost all MF camera built in 60-80'. Unfortunately, there is only Chinese character version, no English version. I have suggested to translate all information to English but I understand it will take quite long. But you may add the web site in your links, who knows how many readers can read Chinese, like me. :-)

The web site is at http://ChinaTLR.yeah.net

Regards,
Jim

Date: 09 Aug 1999
From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Cameras

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 8-8-99

I have an earlier model of this camera and it takes incredibly sharp photos.

I read that some of these had lenses made by Carl Zeiss Jena, which would possibly (if they were 4 element lenses) make them similar to the Zeiss Tessar lenses on Super Ikonta B and BX cameras.

The camera I have has a chrome top and is solid and well made.

I have seen later models of this camera with a black top and they seemed a lot flimsier than my camera. (The top may have been plastic).

Like Russian (Ukranian etc.) cameras, the Chinese cameras and lenses are all over the lot in terms of quality and construction.

I would avise your getting the earlier chrome model, but that is still no guaranty of quality. Good luck.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999
From: omegaman [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Cameras

Charles Kleesattel wrote:

> I'm considering the purchase of a Seagull 203.  Has anyone had any
> experiences with this camera.  Its not the TLR that is advertised quite
> a lot, but rather a close copy of the Ziess Super Ikonta.
>
> thanks,
>
> chuck k

Chuck:

The Seagull 203 was a nice camera. It was produced around 1972. The later models, 203-1, are not nearly as good. Film loading doors spring open without provocation and build quality is not in the same league as the earlier model. They were copies of the Super Ikonta IV but were better cameras than the IV. Before you ask, yes, I did have the 203, 203-1 and the IV. The 203 is easy to tell from the 203-1 as the 203-1 is so marked. If you get one that is not marked, the exposure calculator that is on the 203 is replaced by the "hot shoe" on the 203-1. Hope this helps,

RC

From Medium Format Digest;
From: "Dan Nesmith" [email protected]
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 93
Subject: Re: Medium Format Digest Vol 2, No. 24

Phil Anton [email protected] writes:

>Does anyone have any old reviews or information on the Seagull TLR?
>I would like to get a simple but reasonable quality medium
>format camera ($100-300 range including lens) and would
>sacrifice features for price, but I don't want a useless lens.
>How would you compare the results with, say, using a Maxxum 35mm
>w/50mm lens? Would you compare the Seagull lens quality to a
>35mm compact lens (slow but good quality)?

First some facts. The Seagull is basically like all other 6x6 TLRs:

Name: Seagull 4A103 6x6
Origin: China (PRC)
Lens: Haiou 75mm/3.5
Shutter: 1-1/300+bulb (multiple exposure possible)
Meter: none
X-sync with hotshoe and adapter
self-timer ~10 sec
Film: 120 only
Leather case. But you have to take it out of the case if you want to change film.

I have one. Actually, I have had two, because the first one broke after two rolls of film (a pin on the side of the viewfinder came out and bent in two, making the camera totally unusable). Luckily the dealer replaced it.

The camera is in general poorly built, especially in comparing it with a Yashica MAT 124G which I had. The inside of the Seagull looks like it's unfinished, and closing it is hard because it doesn't really fit together properly.

Picture quality is not as good as the Yashica, IMHO. I have a Maxxum and the optics are certainly sharper on it, even considering the increase in negative size. My Seagull also doesn't make square pictures, they are kind of skewed. It does have some cool-looking Chinese characters written on it, however.

>If the Seagull is not worth the $100, can anyone recommend a different TLR
>camera or a reasonable older camera to hunt for in the used market?

You might want to look for a Yashica MAT 124G, which is almost identical, but comes with a meter, allows 220 film, and doesn't allow multiple exposure.

You can probably find a very good used MAT 124G for around $200, even through a dealer (several of them are offered in Shutterbug). Of course, with both of these cameras, you can't interchange lenses or backs, although you can find wide-angle and telephoto adapters for the Yashica.

Dan
[email protected]

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000
From: Stephen Chen [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: seagull medium format

hi,

first of all, I'll like to congratulate you on a great resource for MF. There is another version of the Seagull 4B-1 that you may want to add to your site. The difference is it uses a 2-element "HD-2" lens instead of a 3 element lens.

-stephen

[Ed.note: Thanks to Tony for sharing these notes!...]
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Chinese Great Wall

Hi'

Just a line regarding the Chinese "Pilot" copy called the Great Wall.

I lived a while in Beijing and bought a Great Wall 6x6 for the equivalent of �21. This was obviously intended for export as all of the writing on it was in English except the exposure guide. I have had great fun with this piece of archaic photography.

The results are particularly good and at f 5.6 would stand comparison with anything.

The only problem with it is that when you trigger the shutter, everyone within 300 yards turns round.

Still, for �21, what can you expect?.

It was on sale in England about five years ago at �124 - - and selling.

I bought mine in 1989 - just in time for tienammen square.

I also have a SALYUT -S of which I am justly proud.

This is a fine piece of equipment, but I am at a loss to understand the comment that the MIR-3 will not work on it.

I have a MIR-3 and it works very well indeed.

There is one thing that I have never been able to master (mainly because my original instruction book was in Russian). With the Soviet fim backs there are no arrows like on the "blads" to indicate where to line up the arrows on the backing paper and despite the years of use, I have never been able to get it right yet.

Where am I supposed to line up the arrows?

Thanks

Tony Russell (England)

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000
From: Stan Patz [email protected]
Subject: Chinese medium format swing lens camera

>I'm keen to find out more about these two, do you have anymore info?
>Clayton
>
> > - something not mentioned anywhere thusfar (I've kept a bit silent
> > to see whether *anyone* had noticed....Edward Meyers, did
> > you?....;)) : the Chinese are making a medium format swing lens
> > camera, 50x110mm, 50mm lens, 1/250, 1/60 and 1/2s, no shift, but
> > focus + multiexposure, and a viewfinder/spirit-level a la Horizon
> > 202 (that on itself is worth the purchase)....and to topp it off,
> > there are plans to make a 35mm adaptor, IOW, a 24x110mm image....

To the group,

I saw this Chinese panoramic camera at a recent NYC camrea show. It is just like a scaled up Horizon. There is a little grab bar at the lens slit; you "cock" the lens by dragging/rotating the drum 180* from one side to the other. It was $1000US and I liked the look of it. But, as I remember, it only had two shutter speeds, 1/125 and 1/60, a real turn off!

If I see the camera again, I will make notes and report.

Stan Patz NYC

[email protected]
www.PatzImaging.com

From Contax Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] Seagull View Camera

> From: Matt Gabriel [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [CONTAX] Seagull View Camera
>
>
> They also made a pocketable 2-1/4 folding rangefinder in the late '80s,
> early '90s that sold for about a hundred bucks. It had bellows and a leaf
> shutter, but it didnt's have movements and it took rollfilm. The optics were
> allegedly above par on this beastie (for a chinese camera, at any rate), and
> thus it's in incredible demand on the used market. I've been keeping my eye
> out for one the past year or so...no luck.
>
> -Matt

There were a couple of different Chinese folders available until about 17 years ago. The one you are talking about is the Seagull 203. The other one is called Hong Mei (Cherry Blossom, I believe). My Hong Mei still works fine but this one has no rangefinder so you guess focus it. I have several Seagull 203 cameras of different vintages, but the shutters have died in all of them. This Chinese leaf shutter, the same one used in the Seagull TLR cameras, is the weak point in all of them. When the shutter does work the Seagull 203 is capable of taking pretty nice photos. The lens is a three-element Triotar type. It uses front element focusing so it is sharpest at infinity and degrades the closer you focus.

Bob

From: [email protected] (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Seagull View Cameras
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000

Hi all

Will looking for data on the Shanghai Camera company (makers of 35mm and the 6x6 Seagull TLR cameras, I found they also make 4x5 and 8x10 view cameras.

http://www.camerachina.com

Cheers
Thom

Date: 4 Jan 2001
From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Lubitel

"Marie Caspelich" [email protected] wrote:

> Hello, I'm new to to medium format, and saw that these are very affordable.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the Lubitel?  Thank you very much, and
> Happy New Year!

If you want a good 6X6 TLR for a reasonable price, buy a Seagull 4A107 (not older models, thay are good, but not as good as 4A107). It has got a multicoated lens of Tessar-type, 75/3,5, (marked 3-G 4-E) a viewfinder with a fresnellens, shuttertimes 1s-1/300s, automatic filmtransport etc. The cheaper 4A105 has got a three-element lens of Triotar-type (probably marked 3-G 3-E). The finish of these new cameras is very elegant, and most if the camera is metal. The price in Sweden is around $250, probably cheaper in the USA.

Lubitel is a plastic camera with a simple threelens anastigmat 75/4 (probably only 75/4,5), with a big "brilliant"-viewfinder with a small matted spot for setting the distance. It is just an improved boxcamera.

Per B.

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001
From: "Robert Lilley" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Double Lens Camera

For a source of new Seagull TLR's and try:

Shutter-Box
John, Mei & ( Masters Apprentice. Heddwyn )
1163, Toorak Road,
Camberwell,
Melbourne
Victoria
Australia  3124

PH.  61-3-9809-4711
FAX. 61-3-9809-4722

Email.     [email protected]
Web Page.  http://www.eisa.net.au/~shutter/

Mei used to work in the Seagull Factory in Shanghi. They ship anywhere and I've no problem with receiving materials in the States within 5 to 6 days.

I don't think you can get as good a TLR for the price.

Rob

...

Date: 15 Jan 2001
From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR Camera WWSC-120

Micro2 [email protected] wrote:

> What about optical quality of Seagull 4A107? How does it compare to
> Yashica?
> P.G.

From the not so scientific test I have made it is at least as good as the Yashinon in a Yashica 124 G. (My Yashica is from 1982).

Per B.

The PHOTO page;
Images (nude), B/W Formulae (lots of them);
In English, auf deutsch, po polsku;
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/

Date: 14 Jan 2001
From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR Camera WWSC-120

"Marie Caspelich" [email protected] wrote:

> Hi, does anyone have any experience with this camera?  Was told by someone
> at Calumet that this takes 220 film (as well as 120), but didn't see this
> stated anywhere.

It does not take 220 film.

I'm into MF, and first thought of getting the Lubitel,

> but I like the metal body (and crank!) of the Seagull.  I like the fact also
> that I can get a brand new one for under $200.  I have been watching eBay
> auctions for Rolleicord and Yashica Mat, but it just feels like I don't know
> what I'm getting since they're all used.  Thanks so much for your help.

Seagull (4A107) has a multicoated lens of Tessar-type, a bright viewfinder with a splitimage screen, multiexposurepossibility etc.

I have a Lubitel, a Yashicamat 124 G, a Seagull 4A103 (old model) and a Seagull 4A107, and I do prefer the Seagull 4A107 to the Yashica. The reason is that the Seagull is more practical in use, a brighter viewfinder makes it easier to set the distance correctly, there is no lever for X and M sync, that you accidently set wrong (very annoying) and the contact for the synccord is palced under the taking lens on the Seagull, not beneath the viewing lens as on the Yashica. Seagull does not have an exposuremeter, which the Yashica has, but I do not know if there are any batteries for it any more, they are prohibited in Sweden because of the mercury content.

It is of course better to buy a new camera than an older, used one.

Per B.

The PHOTO page; http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Speaking of Seagulls(Late Response!)

--- In russiancamera@y..., Bill Brady wmbrady@o... wrote:

> Anyone know how to tell if you have a 3-3 lens or a 4-3? The Seagull I
> picked up off eBay just says WWSC, no 105 or 107.

bill,

saw this posting whilst reviewing the old pages. just joined the group first week of this year. Haiou is seagull in chinese, the 3E/3G lenses are marked as HAIOU-31, and the 4E/3G lenses are marked HAIOU-41. such was the way my seagull was marked. did you ever get any answer hence to this effect?

regards,

jay

From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 2 Feb 2001
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR

Brick [email protected] wrote:

> The Seagull TLR has been in production for almost 30 years. Most of the
> lenses are of 3 elements, only 4A-107 has a 4 elements Tessar lens.

4A105 has a three-element lens, 4A107 has a four element lens. No other models are in production.

http://www.camerachina.com/

Rolleiflex, Yashicamat etc. are out of production, does it make them better?

.........

> You can find a pretty good review at:
> http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/1837/seagull.html

This refers to the old 4B, which is no longer produced. The latest models have multicoated lenses, which makes them a lot better.

Per B.

Seagull TLR among Top 25 Cameras

I just recently I purchased 4A-107 Seagull 120 TLR with this designation on the taking lens ( 3-G 4-E.)bottom lens)

I am impressed with the value of the camera ( it was purchased in August 2000 in China by a friend for 160.00 US$). I would certainly recommend it to others.

Construction and finish Quality is above average. (Minolta has recently had an influence on the quality control at the factory in Shanghai) Shutter speeds and apertures have tested out to be accurate. It is easy to load film, focus. and expose.

A hand held meter is helpful but not necessary as you can use your 35mm camera with a 50mm lens attached for exposure readings. To date all I have used is the "Sunny F16 Rule"for my exposures with exacting results.

More information on this rule can be found at the library or perhaps on the internet.

I have been a professional photographer using an assortment of camera formats. Currently my formats are 35mm and 4x5 and recently the 6x6 Seagull TLR. I also own and operate a Custom Photo Lab where I meet on a daily basis customers using medium format systems that have cost thousands of dollars. Guess what ? In comparing print quality that can be produced with a Rollei 6x6, and a Pentax 6x7, and a Mamiya 645 the Tessar designed lens of the Seagull 4A-107 is equal if not better in some cases.In fact this lens is sharper than most 35mm lenses. Most of those who I have shown prints made from this camera are flabergasted when I tell them it is made in China and has the unlikley name of Seagull. Their usual response is, can you get me one?

Purchase this camera only with this designation on the lens (3-G 4-E) and you will be pleasantly surprised at the sharpness of the lens from F8 - F22. Yes you could find a used TLR for the same amount . But why would you?

Lens sharpness- excellent
Contrast - above average
Color rendition- good
Bright viewing screen
Nice 6x6 negatives
Easy to handle
Not cumbersome. (This would be a great camera for portaiture, weddings)
Takes only 120 Film !!!!

There will be alot of controversy about this camera because prior to year 2000 the quality was not there and most Seagulls purchsed to date may not have the Tessar designed lens but would come with a 3-G 3-E (three group, three element) lens that is an underperformer for the user but profitable for the retailer. This camera was reported to be one of the best 25 for 1999 and 2000 by Photo Techniques Magazine.

Terrance
EQP

Editor's Note: I have learned that some of these Seagull cameras are sold relabeled and sold under the Texer brand (including the 35mm SLR minolta clone variants) (e.g., Middle East etc.). No doubt many other labels are used to "disguise" the origin of these cameras under an import label. See Manufacturers and Importers.

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
From: Robert Lilley [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Rollei] Rollei's address?

If you want an inexpensive TLR, buy a Seagull. The Seagull is a decent camera for the price (generally less than a $100 US new) - and the reason it is available at this cheap price is the fact that China is a huge market place for them. If we made 'em here in the West, I bet the price would be three times that amount for the exact same camera because of labor costs and low volume sales. If the Rolleiflex TLR had the same demand as the Seagull does, then we would see a higher quality camera for a cheaper price.

Rob

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: M39 on 6x6??

Parlin 44 wrote:

>Is this right? a 6x6 camera that uses M39 lenses? hhhmmmm...
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1230604618
>
>It'd be interesting to see what you get if you stick a J-12 35mm, a
>fish-eye?

It is a Great Wall, not a rare collectors item, not worth $100 at all.

It is a 39mm mount lens, no other lens will fit, certainly not a Jupiter-12 as the rear element will stop the lens mount to get even close to the camera.

I have tried using a 135mm enlarging lens with extension tubes, it caused vignetting. The lens has got a front-element distance-setting and single coating. It was probably the worlds cheapest 6X6 SLR in its days, but it is possible to make nice pictures with it.

The camera is a copy of a Pilot Super from the late 1930's.

Per B.
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: M39 on 6x6??

It costs about 30~40 US Dollars nowadays in China.

Francis

From Russian Camera Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Chinese" Fed - Feds !!!

Steven Berkowitz wrote:

>OK guys, here are the facts according to "300 Leica
>Copies", Pont & Princelle.

There is a book "Cameras of China" by Douglas St. Denny (Jessops 1989), I think Jessops sells it very cheap now, some �3. It is not without errors, but not bad.

Polish Fotografia reports from the Leipzig spring fairs 1958 "A real surprise was the international debute of the Chinese photoindustry. The Chinese were showing the 35mm camera "Shanghai" on the Leipzig fairs [...]. It is very close to Leica III in its construction, with a standard lens of 1:3,5/50 mm. The production in 1958 of this camera will be 1000 pieces" (Fotografia 1958/7 p.349).

Per B.

From Russian Camera Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Chicom Commemorative Russian FED knockoffs

> From: "Robert Lilley" [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 
> Subject: [russiancamera] Chicom Commemorative Russian FED knockoffs
>
>
> Given all the "new" lines of specialty Russian rangefinder cameras  coming
> out, I was wondering if the Chinese ever copied the Soviet cameras back
> during Mao's time?  Who knows, perhaps the Chicom "Tibetan Wilderness"  model
> has large knobs as well?  Perhaps there is a "Great Leap Forward"
> commemorative Contax mount for those quick lens changes required during
> struggle meetings!  If not, someone better get busy!  There is a whole  new
> market waiting!

The Chinese made a lot of cameras. So far as I know they never copied any Russian ones, though. I just sold a Seagull DF-1, which is a pretty literal and decent copy of a Minolta SR-1. In my collection of Chinese cameras I have a Seagull DF-1 ETM, which is the same camera with TTL metering, and very rare. I also have two meterless Peafowl DF-1, also Minolta copies but from a different factory. One is chrome and one is black.

The Chinese made a wonderful Hasselblad copy called "East Wind". While the lens mount is the same they actually improved the film magazines by adding a hinged back, so they are much easier to load than the Hassy. They made 50, 80, and 150 lenses, all copies of the Zeiss originals. This camera is also quite rare and doesn't come up for sale often, and sells high.

Perhaps the neatest Chinese camera is the "Red Flag" 20. It looks like a cross between an M3 type Leica and an M5 type Leica. Has M bayonet and works with Leica lenses. Pont and Princelle say these were made from 1971 to 1977, with total production only about 200. I've only ever handled one and it gave the impression of very solid build. The story goes that it was produced at the request of Mao Tse Tung's wife, an avid photographer. They were given to top party officials as gifts but probably never openly sold.

There are lots of other interesting Chinese cameras. I just sold a Seagull 203, a folding medium format rangefinder camera, to a list member. These are rarely seen these days and make excellent images.

> Seriously, I have a Seagull TLR, which is a definite user - normal sized
> knobs though.  I'd go for a 35mm of same quality.

The best Seagull TLR is the 4A-1. This has the four-element Tessar copy. They are also very hard to find. The 4A-103 with Triotar type lens is the one most often found.

Bob

Date: 11 Jul 2001
From: [email protected] (Yip)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull TLR

I have the latest Seagull TLR4 element lens. Bought it as a cheap intro to MF photography. Wanted something new.

Also have a Leica M6 TTL , Nikon FM2T and a Nikon F4S. Am not new to this game.

My sharpest, most inspiring pics are from the Seagull. The lens is superb, pin sharp and colours beautiful. A large negative helps ! Like Fuji NPC 160 Some how the brick shape is condusive to holding it steady. Can handhold till 1/15 sec

However bear in mind this is a fully manual camera, no internal lightmeter, and a fixed lens. Filters, polarisers will be hard to get as the size is non standard. The lens is slow. It looks like an antique, feels like an antigue and not very well made. The format is square 6x6. The viewfinder makes you look down and the image is a bit strange, when is left appears right, but easily got used to.

Neverheless it gets the job done and will last at least 20 years !!!!! But it probably needs one min per shot if you are quick !

Mine had trouble with the flash, doesn't seem to work. But all is forgiven because it gives me the greatest pics.....when there is light.

Am very glad I bought it........ Left me grasping at how such a cheap camera can produce such wonderful pics and wondering why I paid megabucks for the more famous names with multifeatures that I hardly use.

I would like a Mamiya 7 II, 6x7 though, but it costs megabucks ! Because there is a choice of lenses and the flash works ?

From Russian camera list:
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Musing about Fed Chinese camera

> From: kelvin [email protected]
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [russiancamera] Musing about Fed Chinese camera
>
> There were a few Chinese leica copies made by Seagull or one of the  other
> Chinese concerns, but they seem quite rare. The few people who wen to
> China could not find them ... but I've seen them in the flesh.

Jack Naylor used to make frequent business trips to China. Finding the cameras was not all that hard for him, but the problem was that it was illegal for a Chinese citizen to sell a camera to him, so he had to work out backdoor barter ways to get them. It was also illegal for him to take them out of the country, but there was no effort to enforce that. He has most of the known Chinese cameras in his collection. His Red Flag and East Wind were the ones I played with at his museum in Boston. He has the largest privately held camera collection in the world.

Bob

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Re: Rollei Users list digest V9 #267

> From: Ilja Friedel [email protected]
> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 
> Subject: [Rollei] Re: Rollei Users list digest V9 #267
>
> P.S. Did anybody had a chance to use the SLR (Six Lense Reflex) from the
> www.camerachina.com (Seagull) page?

Yes, I've shot with that camera. It was developed in collaboration with Allen Lo (ex Nimslo) and his company 3D Image Technology. It uses 220 film only, and makes 5 645 frames per exposure. The lenses on the one I used were supplied by Mamiya, but the Chinese may be making their own these days. It was around 1993 that I worked with it, if memory serves. The company hired me to shoot some 3D nudes to use in their photokina exhibit in 1994. They made some 30 X 40 inch and a couple even larger lenticular transparencies from the images, and they were mounted with backlighting on large columns on four sides of their display space. They did attract attention.

The camera is slow to work with and must be absolutely level. The viewing image is rather dim so it was not very easy to focus. I ended up having an assistant hold a pen light where I wanted sharpest focus so I had something to focus on. Shots were done on Fuji 100 and 400 speed color negative films. I used my heaviest tripod for the outdoor shots, and a studio stand for the stuff in the studio.

Bob

From ROllei Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] age of rollei users?

I don't know about young Rollei users, but there are a hell of a lot of young TLR users thanks to the Seagull cameras. Phoenix is selling them in large numbers in the USA now, and other firms have done so before. It is the ideal student camera. Fully mechanical so you must do all the work, and uses 120 film with is pretty easy to develop and print.

I'd hope that when all those Seagulls die, as they generally do since the shutters just don't hold up, the owners would want something better. There's your future Rollei user!

Bob

...

Date: 27 Jun 2001
From: [email protected] (Yip)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Yashica/Seagull TLR Lens, Flash, Filter questions

I have the new Seagull 6x6, 4 element lens.

It is a very basic camera, totally manual and that is the way I like it !

The good
-------------

The lens is superb, beautiful colours and pin sharp.

Exceptionally good for potraits.

Final print will beat the best 35mm flat in terms of quality But bring it to a very good lab for development.

I sent my first roll to a 1hr lab and they delivered rubbish, I cried and thought I bought a dud camera.

Sent my 2nd roll to a custom lab, I couldn't believe the difference...fantastic.

Leaf shutter very quiet.

Exceptional value for $.

Can hold till 1/15sec and still get sharp pics, nothing to vibrate, no mirror !

The bad
-----------

There is something wrong, I can't get it to work with my Nikon flash either with the hotshoe or PC connection, sometimes it flashes most times it doesn't. Bewildering. Might send it for repairs.

Max aperture is 3.5 which is norm for shutter leaf mech. but is slow when you are used to 2 or 1.4

Takes about 1 min a shot, you have to meter, etc etc........not for the impatient..

Body okay but not well made, probably can last long enough !

[Ed.note: Mr. Erwin Puts is a noted photo article and CDROM author with interests in testing Leica lenses and related technical issues...]
From Leica Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001
From: Erwin Puts [email protected]
Subject: [Leica] Medium format

>A bigger negative IS always better.    Unless the camera is made in  China.

Again a wrong statement. A few years ago te British Journal published an two part article comparing the Seagull 6x6 Rollei copy with a top class 35mm camera/lens. Guess who won? The Seagull picture was visibly better.

Erwin

Date: Fri, 11 May 2001
From: [email protected] (Yip Kok Lok)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: TLR Seagull 6x6, my experience so far.

Well I bought a seagull 6x6 recently as a first foray into medium format. The first roll was a disaster, 60% of the shots were underexposed (reddish) and out of focus. They looked like bad 110 shots......Totally shattered ! I sent it to my regular 1 hr lab . While that lab did good prints for 35mm , their 120 work was miserable. My square format shots were printed rectangle and large parts (33%) of the negative was unprinted I thought perhaps it could be the camera (its only US$176 new-herein Singapore). But it could be the camera, the external lightmeter (tiny Voigtlander) or the lab. I am not new to photography, some chances are not me !!

The second roll using a different lightmeter (Sekonic 508), a good lab (which was somehow cheaper), same film, produced wonders. The prints were so sharp and the colours incredible. I am absolutely delighted and astounded that this cheap camera can produce such amazing shots. Definitely way way better than my Leica M6 which cost 10 times more (granted I am comparing apples and oranges).

Dare I now venture into large format ! There is a 4 x 5 Shanghai camera (US$500-1000) which has good reviews. But it could be difficult to find a good lab that does 4 x 5 work here.

But if you ever hesitated to buy a seagull 6x6 TLR, don't be, you will be amazed. And remember to find a good lab if you don't print them yourself.

(Am totally unrelated to Seagull !)

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: Evan J Dong <[email protected]>
Reply to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Rollei] Panflex and RE: Back from Honeymoon in HK

Sui Fai and any others who are interested in the translation for the
Panflex Panoramic. This is a a rough translation of what my wife
translated for Bob Shell. I hope that it is okay to post this, as I did
promise Bob that he will be giving the breaking news.

The Seagull TLR is widely available in Hong Kong camera shops and also
the Friendship department store within Hong KOng and mainland China.


===============
English Translation of Panflex 120 Panoramic Camera

Phoenix 120 Panoramic camera was introduced at the 1999 International
Camera Equipment Exposition in Hangzhou, China. On display, this 120
panoramic camera brought in a huge crowd of spectators. The Phoenix
Optics Company and the American 21 Multimedia Publications Limited
Company, came together to cooperate on the development of this 120
rotating lens panoramic camera the "Phoenix Panflex". This camera uses
a 4 elements within 3 group lens structure. The focal distance length is
50mm. The aperature range is adjusted from F 3.8 - F 22. The cylinder
rotary system shutter speed is divided into three settings of 1 / 250, 1
/ 60 and 1 / 2 second. The camera uses a mechanical spiral spring for
revolving as its power. The panoramas angle of view is 140 degree. It
uses 120 film to create an 50 x 112 mm negative for a total of 6 frames.
The camera is suitable for scenery, large-scale group photo, building as
well as internal main hall photography. This camera will sell on the
International market as the Panflex name. In the domestic market it will
use the Phoenix name. The estimate selling price is approximately 7000 Yuan Renminbi.


Esitimate Yuan Renminbi to US Dollar Conversion Rate is rtoughly 8 to $1
US Dollar.


Esitmate US Dollar price is $875.00

=====================

Siu Fai <[email protected]> writes:
> -----Original Message-----
> >Welcome back,
> >
> >I am surprised by the lack of medium format use in China, however,
> the
> >availability of the panoramic camera is surprising. Is it the
> Panflex? Was
> >this a 120/220 version? Do you remember the price?
>
> Thanks,
>
> I don't remmember if it was a Panflex but the name starts with a "P"
> and it
> was definatly a 120/220 because that thing was really big, much
> bigger than
> the regular 35mm Horizon. The price was a little bit more than 7000
> RMB,
> which is about 900 US$.
>
> Siu Fai

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Rollei] Back from Honeymoon in HK

> -----Original Message-----
> >Welcome back,
> >
> >I am surprised by the lack of medium format use in China, however, the
> >availability of the panoramic camera is surprising. Is it the Panflex? Was
> >this a 120/220 version? Do you remember the price? 

for a contact that sells seagull cameras (and Large format kit as well) try:
[email protected]>, from Shanghai Shenhao professional camera co ltd

Mark.

From Rangefinder Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 
From: Kari Kuutti <[email protected]>
Subject: Phenix lens


I have some experience from one lens, a 2.8/50, recently produced by
the Phenix factories in Shanghai, China. From the viewpoint of this
list it may be interesting that the lens is fixed in a all-metal
rangefinder body, and the whole is called Phenix 205 PS -- last in
the series of Phenix 205 and still available off the self in China. I
bought it because of curiosity when visiting Beijing a while ago with
about 70 euros (60 dollars). Not a bad price for a brand-new
all-metal rangefinder camera with the mentioned 2.8/50 lens, 1-1/300
shutter and a CdS exposure meter with leds in the finder (plus half a
year full quarantee, effective everywhere in mainland China...). And
a sturdy camera it is, apparently externally a copy of some Japanese
full-size rangefinder from 1960s (Yashica?).

Unfortunately the quality of the work and finish leaves a lot to be 
desired. The lens is certainly more than adequate for 10x15 (5'x7')
prints. When down in 5.6 or 8 it produces relatively sharp images,
good enough for some enlargement. But it is in all ways inferior to
the 2.8/50 Xenar in my 1957 Retina IIc. Controls are inexact and
shaky, and in the few rolls of film that have been put through it,
there has been some film transport problems -- sprocket jumping off
from perforation, causing uneven spacing between the frames or even
overlapping. The exposure meter was 3 values off the point in the
factory settings -- luckily there is a lot of empty space for
electronics inside the old-fashioned body, and the trim potentiometer
was easy to find and manipulate. Irritatingly the exposure range
where the green led glows is somewhat less than one stop, and it is
often difficult to get it glowing without using half-stops for which
there are no clicks in the aperture ring.

Thus the camera is hard to be recommend. Which is very sad, because a
bit better made camera with such specifications would be just the 
right thing to put in the hands of a youngster interested a bit more
seriously in photography.

There was a Phenix history poster in shops where I visited, and the
Yasuhara T981 (see http://www.cameraquest.com/yasu2.htm ) was also
faithfully pictured there under year 1998. As far as I understood,
none of the people in the three shops I visited (large ones in
central Beijing, one of them clearly serving also professional
customers) had ever seen one.

--Kari Kuutti 

From Rangefinder Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 
From: Winfried Buechsenschuetz <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Phenix lens



Kari Kuutti wrote:
> Unfortunately the quality of the work and finish leaves a lot to be
> desired.

I recently bought an older Phenix205 camera from the 70s (don't remember
the s/n which indicates it). After fixing a loose screw on the advance
axis under the bottom cover at least the film advance and shutter
cocking mechanism worked. This screw came loose after a few turns, and
finally I glued it into place.

The shutter was stuck, too, and when I opened it I found it rather
crudely made. So is the rest of the camera. Originally, it was an
imitation of the Konica Auto-S2 body without the AE mechanism. This 
imitation is also found in the shutter cocking and "feedback" mechanism
which allows for film advance only if the shutter was released properly.
If the shutter is stuck, nothing moves, like on the Auto-S2. I have to
admit that I broke a stop pin when opening the shutter, I managed to
insert a new one but lost the X sync contact.

Strange enough, I found an ASA setting lever in the same place where you
would expect it on the Auto-S2. But on a meterless camera, it is pretty
useless, and a film reminder could have been made with less effort.

The rangefinder is bright and accurate, but due to an additional lens in
the optical path to the bright frame which is not achromatic, you see a
pretty coloured bright frame!

As a resume, I would say that this a rather rattling camera which
compares to some early russian stuff. I wonder how they managed to make
an imitation of the LeicaM4 in the 70s (this item is currently offered on ebay).

Phenix also makes the JG50, a very retro-look rangefinder, looking like
some early Petri rangefinders which were in Leica M style, too. But I
have no information whether this one has interchangeable lenses.

Winfried

To: [email protected]>
From: Bob Shell [email protected]>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] Re: Kalimar Reflex


> From: "Jeff Wewers" [email protected]>
> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [camera-fix] Re: Kalimar Reflex
> 
> There also was a Chinese camera labelled Great Wall that was
> supposedly based on the German Pilot. I've got a Pilot Super in
> working condition. World's darkest viewing screen!  Jeff.


Yeah, Great Wall DF-1 through DF-4  (DF is apparently the Chinese for
SLR).  I have had several, sold all but one which I'm keeping for my
collection.  It uses the mirror as the front shutter curtain!!  Works
like the old Exa cameras.  Has, of all things, Leica screw mount for
the lens.  They made only two accessories, an L bracket and an extension
tube set, and I have one of each.  You can use Leica screw mount lenses
on it for closeup photography.  Unfortunately, the focusing screen is
plain ground glass and about the same brightness as your Pilot Super.
Burt Keppler told me he visited the factory in Beijing years ago and
saw the production facilities for this camera.  Primative would be doing
them a favor!!  Amazing they can make a camera at all under those
conditions, much less a half decent one like the Great Wall series.

Bob


Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: MZ [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 

  For the triplet version, not the 107 which is slightly better,
  8x10 inch b&w enlarged prints I did myself, 
  At f/3.5 the corners are definately blurred.
  below f/8 it outperforms Canon EOS 50mm f1.4 of similar scenes
  easily because of the smoother tones and that grainless
  sharpness. Avoid shooting into light source because the
  coating is subpar compared to expensive MF models. 

Thedrks791 wrote:

> I saw a Seagull TLR for  $125, looks brand new 
> however
> I can't tell what model it is 104 vs 107
> ALso, I know it won't be in the class of the of the major brands  
> but is it  a decent performer?
> I am thinking of taking   portraits of my family and friends'  families,
>  probably 11x20 or slightly bigger 
> 
> thanks
> 


From: [email protected] (zhang)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull
Date: 18 Oct 2001 

"Manh Le" [email protected]> wrote 
> For family & friends photos the Seagull TLR is definitely a good choice. I
> once owned a brand new Seagull TLR, model 107, I think. I tried one roll of
> Ilford FP5, two rolls of Kodak Portra 160VC and one roll of Kodak Portra 400
> VC. They look pretty. Definitely on par or better than my Nikon 85 mm F1.8.
> However, the film transport stucked at the fourth roll. I returned the
> Seagull TLR and bought a Rolleiflex at a local pro shop. I have never looked
> back again.
> 
> Although many other Seagull users have been happy with the Seagull I have
> come to realize that their quality is far from being uniform. One may be
> lucky with a good unit. Other may not. I would suggest you try it out and
> see if and how you like it. A good feature that the Seagull TLR has is the
> flash socket (i.e. hot shoe). I need to use a flash bracket on my Rolleiflex
> but that's ok with me.
> 
> Seagull TLR comes in three different models. The low end has a knob for film
> advancement. The middle model has the crank for film advancement. The high
> end is similar to the middle model except it has three elements (?) in the
> lens.
> 
> Manh
> 
> "Thedrks791" [email protected]> wrote...
> > I saw a Seagull TLR for  $125, looks brand new
> > however
> > I can't tell what model it is 104 vs 107
> > ALso, I know it won't be in the class of the of the major brands
> > but is it  a decent performer?
> > I am thinking of taking   portraits of my family and friends'  families,
> >  probably 11x20 or slightly bigger
> >
> > thanks


As for the ununiform quality of Seagull TLRs, check message 84 for one
of the major reasons. I have collected many seagulls and I have found
the same problem i.e the image you saw in the view finder may not be
the same on the film focal plane. Sometimes it is caused by incorrect
positioning of the ground glass and sometime by inmcorrect adjustment
of position of the viewing lens and taking lens. If is the lattar, you
have to take off the front cover to make fine adjustment of the
positions of both lenses by yourself. It is not a difficult job. If
properly adjusted, the 3 element lens is a decent performer.

Zhang


To: "[email protected]" [email protected]>
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] need Seagull 120 repair help

Kelvin wrote:

>No, cock the shutter after you cock the self-timer.
>I recall they are two seperate levers ... but let me go home and re-check.

If it is the 4A-xxx, try pushing the little multiexposureknob which is by the winding crank, wind the crank to cock the shutter and then fire the release button.

If it is the 4B (which I do not own) or 203, just cock the shutter with the shuttercocking lever, make sure film is wound on, so the double exposure prevention does not stop 
the release button to be pushed.

If the selftimer has not been used for a long time, it might need to get some help to get going, push it extremely gently to see if it starts moving by itself. 

Selftimers and long times do get stuck by not being used, I think they cause more problems than they are worth.

Per B.
The PHOTO page;
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/

To: [email protected]
From: "Rick Oleson" [email protected]>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] Re: need Seagull 120 repair help

i don't know if this is any of my business... i'm not specifically 
familiar with the Seagull TLRs, but i have never encountered any 
problems associated with changing the speeds on a leaf shutter while 
the shutter is cocked.  is this a problem peculiar to seagulls?

if you feel like you have nothing to lose by trying, i have a generic 
guide to leaf shutter disassembly posted here:     

http://members.tripod.com/rick_oleson/index-55.html

just go slowly and carefully, keep the parts in order as you remove 
them, it may work out okay.  if the self-timer is part of the 
shutter, once you get the shutter open it should be pretty clear 
which set of gears is the self-timer: put a drop of lighter fluid on 
that gearset and it may start running by itself.  try not to use so 
much that it gets on the lens or shutter blades.

good luck!

rick  :)=

...


To: "[email protected]" [email protected]>
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] Re: need Seagull 120 repair help

Rick Oleson wrote:

>i don't know if this is any of my business... i'm not specifically 
>familiar with the Seagull TLRs, but i have never encountered any 
>problems associated with changing the speeds on a leaf shutter while 
>the shutter is cocked.  is this a problem peculiar to seagulls?

I asked the Swedish importer how often it happens, the answer was "Never!". They of course check every camera before selling and adjust them if necessary, which the importers of North America (especially Canada) do not.

>> >>> The WWSC was released after the production of the 4A and 4B 
>series. It
>> > is
>> >>> made from a completely different mould and an updated design 
>and hence
>> > costs
>> >>> about 2x as much.

The current models are 4A-105 with a cookelens and 4A-107 with a four element triplet (Tessartype). 3-E 3-G and 4-E 3-G. They are much better adjusted before leaving 
factory than the previous line was.

WWSC was some silly name meaning Wind With Shutter Cocking or something like it. The nameplate is now plastic, it makes it easy to change name. If you order 1000 
pcs. you can get them in any colour you want and with your own brand name.

Seagulls aregenerally good and reliable cameras.

Per B.
The PHOTO page;
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/


From: "Graham Stewart" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Finally about to take the plunge into LF
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 

Ok i'm probably days away from starting purchaing my first LF kit... can
someone give me an idea if these are reasonable things to go for and if
there is anything missing.

>From seagull camera:

Shen Hao HZX45-IIA Camera - 4x5 Chrome Plated, Teak, Exchangeable Bellow
($485)
3 or 4 Film Holders ($40 each)
Die cast lens panel - #0, #1, #3 (Will this take most lenses or do they vary
too much? $20)


And from ebay:

Schnieder or Nikkor ~150mm lens
Lightmeter

Filmwise i'll probably start shooting something like ilford since hopefully
i can develop it myself so I can learn a bit more about it before having to
spend big bucks on developing.

Is anything glaringly obvious missing from above?
Is three of four film holders enough or am i likely to get easily
frustrated?
Is there some good developing tank system for doing 4x5?
Does anyone know of any good LF labs in Denver, CO or Edinburgh, Scotland?
What would be a good book to learn about LF photography?

regards,
Graham


From: "Dan" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 

If you get lucky you may get a 'keeper' - one that has decent optics and
reliable mechanics. I have tried 2 over the last 5 years, and both have been
pieces of junk, even the latest $200-$300 model. The optics are less than
mediocre at best (look at transparencies through a 8x magnifier even
w/camera on tripod at f11 focused carefully), and the mechanics are terribly
unreliable. The shutter would get stuck frequenty and stop working for a
roll, etc. I got rid of it.  The design of the camera may be ok, but the
manufacturing is poor  andQA/QC is spotty. I wouldn't buy this camera at any
price because it is likely to stop working even with little use. I tried the
latest model after seeing a write-up in a recent issue of Shutterbug. Boy
what a #$@%#$@# mistake. My 2 cents is to put your money into something
else. Anything else.

Joe Foto [email protected]> wrote 
> "x" xx> wrote 
> > Hi, all!!  I'm interested in getting into medium format, and having looked
> > around quite a bit recently it looks like the Seagull TLR's are a good place
> > for someone to start (especially considering the high price tags of other
> > medium format's)...  Anyone use these models, or have an opinion about them?
> > :)
> >
> > Thanks!
> > SteveB
> > [email protected]
>
> I've had 2 or 3 back in the early 90s. The shutter kept going out in
> them within a year, and I'd have always send them back for another
> one. The lenses are ok, but nothing that great.
>
> Since going to a Rolleiflex, that's been it. The Seagull (once again
> needing a new shutter) has been on the shelf for years.
>
> If you're just getting into MF, then take the money you've saved for
> the Seagull, add about $100 to it and get a Rolleiflex. The lenses are
> the absolute best in the world.....no doubt about it.
>
> Joe


To: "[email protected]" [email protected]>
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] 6x6 Seagull 203

Bob Shell wrote:

>> 
>> I just started a list for users and collectors of Chinese cameras,
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chinesecameras
>> It is meant for all types and brands, Seagull, Great Wall, Huashan, Mingca,
>> Phenix etc. You are welcome to join!
>
>
>Well, I was happy to join, but I've tried several times and damned Yahoo
>keeps giving me a "Server too busy, try again later" message.  Are you sure
>you want to have this list on Yahoo???????
>
>Bob
>
Send an email to [email protected] ,that should also work.

I managed to log in without problem now.

I am not shure I want to have the list on yahoo, but finding out were I really want to have it would take too long time. Besides, Russiancamera, EE-camera-group, 
Camerafix, ClubM42 etc. are all on Yahoo.

Per B.

The mailinglist for users and collectors of Chinese Cameras;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chinesecameras
Or to subscribe directly;
[email protected]


From: [email protected] (Dan Kalish)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: $200 chinese TLRs? Re: Russian Cameras
Date: 12 Dec 2001 

[email protected] (Robert Monaghan) wrote 
> yeah, there is an article in the latest issue of shutterbug on these 
> chinese TLRs, it is the medium format issue they have every year, anyway
> at $140 and $199 for the 3 and 4 element lens variants, I thought they 
> were overpriced compared to a decent, coated, late rolleicord or 'flex, 
> let alone ricohflex, autocord, or yashicamats etc. 
> 
...

Funny you should mention this, Robert: I posted an inquiry about
Chinese cameras in the Russian thread.

I bought a Seagull (I think 105) on a whim from a reputable dealer. 
The salesman dismissed the $150 model (104?) so I got the
medium-priced model for $250.  When I got home and looked at it, I
asked myself "what am I doing"?  I'd never used a medium format camera
before (except a 1917-1933 Voigtlander Avus) and this was a lot for a
camera I wasn't sure I was going to like or use much.  I returned it
immediately and got a used Rolleiflex MX for half that price.

I haven't used it much yet so I can' give a report.

Dan


From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 

"x" xx> wrote:

> Hi, all!!  I'm interested in getting into medium format, and having looked
> around quite a bit recently it looks like the Seagull TLR's are a good place
> for someone to start (especially considering the high price tags of other
* medium format's)...  Anyone use these models, or have an opinion about them?
* 
The 4A107 has a Tessartype lens, very good, 4A105 a cookelens, just 
good. There are still some older models around, 4B1, film advance with
a red window, 4A103, same as 4A105 but the lens is single coated.

Generally they are well made, well worth the money, and in my opinion 
far better to use than any old worn Yashicamat for which you pay the 
same price.

Per B.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chinesecameras


Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
From: MZ [email protected]>
Subject: Chinese TLR was Re: So much for the "China" being sought after!
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 

  Wow, it looks nice. When was it made?
  I have a beloved Haiou 203 6x6 folder made in the 70s beside
  my EOS and contax gear. It has a simple, single coated Cook 
  triplet but produces nice "creamy" yet sharp pictures at 
  f5.6 and below. Its metal finishing is still impeccable after
  all these years.
    
  The quality of Chinese MF cameras declined from
  the 70s into the 80s and 90s, and only became better
  since about 1998-9. Interestingly, China is now the 2nd largest
  market for Hesselblad (after US) and the 4th largest market
  for the Leica M system (after US, Japan & Germany), according
  to manufacturer interviews published in the Chinese version 
  of Pop Photo. An influx of quality camera products obviously
  spurned the domestic manufacturers to improve quality
  or see themselves become the subjects of Leica M6s in the 
  dark alleys. 
  
  The notion that Chinese product equals junk will slowly
  but assuredly change. Just a few months ago in another news group,
  a guy was saying that he's sure that chinese ships are junk,
  until I pointed out, from an article in a US trade journal 
  nonetheless, that China is now the third largest ship exporter
  after Japan and S. Korea, with its largest customers being
  Germany, Denmark, Norway, etc...in that order. 

  All I am saying is that if you have a good TLR in your hands
  and if you are not really looking for a few hundred dollars
  urgently, you might as well hold on to it. People will eventually 
  recognize quality and buy it up, hopefully within 10 years :-). 

  If you can read Chinese, visit www.chineseTLR.com and 
  www.xitek.com. Both are wonderful sites with lots of info and
  discussion on Chinese MF and 35mm gear, many of the participants
  also own Hassey, Rollei and Leica gear. 

  L.
 
John Stewart see REAL email address in message. wrote:

> Funny how these auctions work.  I was able to sell a VGA resolution digital
> camera for $76, but the nice "China" TLR with the top speed of 1/500 didn't
> hit $50.  Happily, my reserve was higher and I secretly wanted a reason to
> keep it.
> 
> I wonder what scared people off?  BTW, the shots of it will be up for a
> short time at www.acpress.com/ebay/chinatlr.jpg if you want to see it.  But
> it's no longer for sale.
> 
> John


From: riceman [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: How good are Seagull Twin Lens Reflex?
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 

    I was thinking of purchasing a Seagull TLR camera for my first foray
into medium format. Here's the link

http://www.phoenixcorp.com/Cameras/Twin_Reflex/twin_reflex.html

    Has anyone had experience with these? Good or bad. Please advise.
Also what model is the best. The specifications all look the same to me
on all four models.

With the exception of the 4B-1TLR this comes with an adapter to change
the image size from 2 1/4" x 2 1/4" to 2 1/4" x 1 5/8". Finally how much
should I be looking to spend?

                                    Thanks, Jeremy



Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Cameras
From: "John Stewart [email protected]
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 

Seagulls have long and uneven history.  Generally most models have mediocre
fit and finish, but seldom leak light.  Some scratch the film, especially
the knob wind models (ruby window counter) that accept 6x4.5 masks.

Almost all have another mediocre triplet that works OK when stopped down.
(There qwere supposed to be other better lenses, but I never saw one.)

Spacing problems have been periodically reported in the crank models.

I am told that the Seagull is the "wedding camera of the third world" and
that in Nepal, portrait photographers cut 120 film into single sheets and
mount them in the back of the camera for one-off shots.

I have a "China" which is made somewhere in the province of Hubei. Or was.
It is a ruby window type, dual format, and you need to cock the shutter.
After smoothing the insert, I prefer using it as a 645 because the far
corners are not too sharp.  But the lens fires beautifully and predictably.
It also has a 1/500th top speed, not 1/300th like all the rest.

I'm not sure who is selling Seagulls, but the prices have gotten way too
high, even with the new black bodies and claims of better quality.
Phenix is renaming them in the USA and is pretty sales/profit motivated
without much concern for what reviewers or others think.  I'd love to see
the price they offer them to their NYC buddies.

However, if you want a new TLR, your choice is limited.


John 


From: [email protected] (Tan)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Cameras
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 

[email protected] (Robert Monaghan) said this on
the Internet:

>see http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/seagull.html on seagull models, also 
>mf/tlr.html
>
>I agree that they are overpriced at current new prices hitting $175 and
>up; I'd much rather than a nice rolleicord if I wanted another TLR...
>
>see http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/budget.html for budget options in 
>medium format
>
>hth bobm


Bob's right about the overpriced bit. I can't believe how much Seagulls now sell
for. I have owned the 4A-1 (the predecessor to the 4A-107) and the 4B-1.

A used Rolleicord V in excellent shape is only about the price of a new Seagull.
Better finished, much more robust. Great lens. Other good choices in the $150+
range include some of the better Yashica TLRs. I am sure Bob's website can give
you an idea of what they are.

FWIW, the nice thing about the Seagull TLRs, is that both current and older
models have very bright focussing screens. If you can find a 4A-107 with a 4
element Tessar-type lens, that would be a very very good camera. However, the
crank mechanism for film winding is a little weak for long term use. 

Personally, I prefer the cheapest Seagull - the 4B-1
http://members.eisa.net.au/~shutter/cameras/4b_1.html

It is a knob wind camera - crank wind mechanisms tend to wear out over time,
shares the same triplet lens as the more expensive but sleeker 4A-105, has dual
formats, has authentic Chinese lettering (I am not impressed by the cheapo
plastic "SEAGULL" badge on the 4A-107 and 5), and the best bit is that it's
about USD$56, at least in Singapore it is. Finish might not be as good as the
all black models, film back might be a tad soft but, hell, if it works, for $56,
who cares.

Now, the Seagulls with triplet lenses (you can tell from the marking in front
"3E, 3G" or 4E, 3G for the Tessar-type) can be pretty spiffy image makers. 

Wide open, the lens exhibits very obvious light falloff towards the corners of
the 6X6 frame (not visible if you're shooting 6x4.5). In my experience, light
falloff disappears entirely by f11. Should this bother you? Well, only if you're
shooting evenly lit scenes like blue skies on a bright sunny day.

Secondly, this lens can be VERY sharp across the entire frame - you'd get this
when the lens is well stopped down at f16-f22 (most of the older triplet designs
are like this). Wide open, the centre is sharp (not razor sharp though), and the
edges are visibly much less so. I ACTUALLY LIKE this characteristic. It makes
for people pictures with nice feel. 

Third, this lens exhibits very very good contrast for an el cheapo make.

You can see some exceptional samples taken by a Seagull triplet here:

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/asiatlrclubpart2 (you have to register as a member
to see the photos); look in the "Random Melaka Shots" album. You'd be impressed
by the contrast and colour.

If you go over to http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/asiatlrphotographyclub (again you
need to register to see the photo folders), you can see how one Brit
photographer modified his 4A-105 to become a panoramic camera with a Kiev TTL
prism head (a permanent epoxy mod). He shoots at f22 to get the best performance
from the triplet. The photos are good enough for commercial use.

One word of advice with all TLRs - if you want contrasty shots, use a lens hood.
The front element of the lenses being not well recessed, tend to be very easily
exposed to stray light.



Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull Cameras
From: "John Stewart [email protected]
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 

Interesting to note that my "China" TLR is almost identicle to the 4B-1
except it has different characters on the nameplate, another logo on the
hood and a 1/500th top speed.

The lens in marked SFJ-3.

Sure haven't seen many of these.

John

 > Personally, I prefer the cheapest Seagull - the 4B-1
 > http://members.eisa.net.au/~shutter/cameras/4b_1.html


From: "David Foy" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: How good are Seagull Twin Lens Reflex?
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 

I used one extensively and would recommend them as beginners cameras if they
can be had at less than the price of a used Yashica-Mat. As new products,
they cannot be recommended at current prices. Specific issues: the lens on
mine was excellent for what it is (in other words, not a Planar or Xenotar
by any means), giving me good sharpness at middle apertures and very little
corner falloff at wider apertures. Color and contrast was quite good. It
quite surprized and delighted me. The film winding mechanism may not stand
up to heavy use. On my specimen, the focus mechanism went out of alignment
and I had to repair it. The insides are not badly built, but the finish and
fit of the mechanism shows mediocre workmanship.

--
David Foy
http://www.frugalphotographer.com

"SimRacer" [email protected]> wrote...
> Tried it, didn't like the quality or feel of the camera. You'd have to get
> the nicer one (without the 645 mask) to even stand a chance at getting a
> good one since it is the only one of the 3 new Chinese TLRs with a 4 element
> taking lens. My opinion, do what I did and find a Yashicamat 124G or similar
> for half the price of the high end Seagull (which $299 US I think). Got a
> great Mat 124G with working meter for just under $200 locally, takes great
> pictures (provided you learn the nuances of purely relected light
> meters...). I think the Seagull's fastest shutter is 1/300, most of the
> older TLRs will do 1/500 and flash sync at every speed.
>
> As far as the 645 mask, I have heard they scratch more film than not.
>
>
> riceman [email protected]> wrote...
> >     I was thinking of purchasing a Seagull TLR camera for my first foray
> > into medium format. Here's the link
> > http://www.phoenixcorp.com/Cameras/Twin_Reflex/twin_reflex.html
> >     Has anyone had experience with these? Good or bad. Please advise.
> > Also what model is the best. The specifications all look the same to me
> > on all four models.
> > With the exception of the 4B-1TLR this comes with an adapter to change
> > the image size from 2 1/4" x 2 1/4" to 2 1/4" x 1 5/8". Finally how much
> > should I be looking to spend?
> >
> >                                     Thanks, Jeremy

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 
To: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: 500k chinese cameras/yr? Re: Other topic: Chinese TLE w/ 1/500

an expert witness is someone having knowledge beyond that generally 
possessed by the public at large in some subject area - per Fed Rules Civ 
Procedure, so I guess we are all experts here ;-)

I checked up some stuff tonight in research, re: AA (earlier post) and 
also found in same volume article in March 1982 p. 70 Keppler SLR Notebook
column in Modern Photography photos of the chinese cameras including hassy 
clone east wind and DF1 seagull and DF-2 cameras, the Great Wall DF-2
(TLR 6x6) etc.

anyway, they say only 500,000 chinese cameras produced, 90% were TLRs, in
1981 because 35mm is too small to contact print, no minilabs, or
enlargers, so they prefer B&W and contact prints 6x6cm. Salaries $60/month 
for 2 working member couples, but rent only $3/month; seagull DF-1 copy of 
1959 minolta SR-2 cost, without meter, $260, no zooms in china then, so
tokina 80-200 f/4.5 cost was $1,750, and hassy clone East Wind with 80
50 and 150mm lenses (f/2.8, f/4, f/4) was $5,000 US in 1981 (only about 
100 made?)

they had 3 factories making minolta SR-2 clones, totally different parts 
and lines, Seagull DF-1, Peafowl (Harbin), and Pearl River (Souchow) ;-)

 I currently have a DF-4 SLR 6x6 with 39mm leica thread lens; surprisingly 
decent photos for a $75 6x6cm SLR (but only one lens, and only 1/200th sec 
to 1/30th IIRC and reportedly a triplet? ;0-) 

grins bobm
-- 


From: "R.J.Bowen" [email protected]>
To: [email protected]>
Subject: Seagull 4A-105
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 

I just received a new in the box Seagull 4A-105.  The first time I tried =
to focus it to the minimum distance (about 1 meter) I heard a small =
crack inside. I then saw a small object adrift in the viewfinder.
I removed the viewfinder hood and saw that the mirror had broken off at =
the top right where the lever-rod assembly on the top right of the =
viewfinder box had snagged behind the corner of the mirror, maybe by =
about one millimeter or so.  The lever(s) had broken a peice off the =
mirror corner.  I glued the mirror back together and backed it up with a =
stiff paper-thin piece of plastic.  I gently bent the focusing lever =
mechanism slightly outwards towards right side of camera body (crank =
side) by about one millimeter so it would clear the mirror ok.  There is =
now no discernable distortion in viewfinder or problem focusing to =
minimum distance.  I have just today emailed Phoenix America and also =
Seagull China to see if I can get a new mirror.  I don't have the =
patience to go through sending it back for repair, waiting for return, =
etc. Having had Russian cameras for some time now, I sort of expect some =
problems with low price MF bodies and I would say that the Seagull is =
comparable to Kiev's.  It may take a few problems to solve, but =
eventually they work well.

Rich Bowen
[email protected]


From: [email protected] (CharlesW99)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 22 Dec 2001 
Subject: Re: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?

I have a Seagull 4B-1 TLR which I bought for around $50 in nearly unused
condition; I've put a roll or two of film though it and it sits in a (deep)
drawer.

I consider it on par with a Yashica "A" (which also has a 3 element lens)
fairly sharp at f8 or 11

If you can find one used on eBay for $25 to $50 I'd go for it; but the present
prices of around $179 to $200 are absurd!!!!!(Considering the average factory
worker in China  makes US $100 if even that a month!).

I don't regard the Yashica Mats as a bad choice at all..;If you don't mind the
older models...you should be able to get one for under $100 easy....for that
matter; look for a Rolleicord model 4 or even a III...very surprisingly, you
can still pick one up for the $75 plus range....

Charlie

>Subject: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?
>From: "x" xx 
>Date: 12/21/2001 
>
>Hi, all!!  I'm interested in getting into medium format, and having looked
>around quite a bit recently it looks like the Seagull TLR's are a good place
>for someone to start (especially considering the high price tags of other
>medium format's)...  Anyone use these models, or have an opinion about them?
>:)
>
>Thanks!
>SteveB
>[email protected]


Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pricing, chinese dig. back for hassy etc. Re: Seagull TLRs?
From: "radiojohn" [email protected]>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 

 > I think they are lots better than lubitels, esp. when both were
 > selling for under $40 (3 el. seagulls from porters new). But at $250?
Eek!

I have to agree.  I like my $75 (new) "China" knob-wind TLR with dual
formats and a top speed of 1/500 I got from Porters three Christmases ago.

The problem is that a lot of folks are not aware of (or old enough to know)
the history of these cameras vs other good used ones.

John


From: Ken Kuzenski [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pricing, chinese dig. back for hassy etc. Re: Seagull TLRs?
Date: 27 Dec 2001 

Robert Monaghan [email protected]> wrote:

> let's see; brad's http://www.usedphoto.com/ has a C3 for $100 and C33
> for $125, c330 for $210, with 80mm f/2.8 TLR lenses starting at $100 so 
> that's a nice Interchangeable pro quality coupled body (vs C2/C22.) TLR
> for $200 to $225 with dealer warranty vs. $250 for a new Seagull and $150 
> used on ebay? seems like a false economy to me.

One other datapoint:  When I decided to try MF, after some reading
(including Bob Monaghan's excellent MF site), I decided to get one
of the older TLRs as a starting point.  I cherrypicked on Ebay; found
cameras that were guaranteed to be in decent working order from sellers
with good feedback, and then bid what I thought was a low-but-fair
price on one at a time.  After a while and a number of missed bids,
one fell into my lap: A Yashica-C for $75.  It turned out to be a 
world o' fun and a heck of a bargain.  And MUCH easier on my elderly
nervous system than having to send back a non-working $250 new TLR
would have been.  :-)   YMMV, but it sure worked for me!

Ken Kuzenski   AC4RD    kuzen001 at acpub .duke .edu


From: [email protected] (Dan Kalish)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?
Date: 27 Dec 2001 

[email protected] (Dan Kalish) wrote 
>...
> Doesn't the January issue of Shutterbug review Seagulls, among other
> medium-format cameras?  I haven't been able to get a copy: Queens, NYC
> is magazine-stand deprived.
> 
...

(I picked up Shutterbug at Penn Station).

As Jason and I noted, the January issue of Shutterbug has a 2 page test
reort on the Seagul 4A-105 and 4A-107.  To summarize, paraphrase and
supplement Robert's voluminous information, here's what they say:

It is a good choice for students and other struggling photographers. 
They consider focusing on fine detail somewhat difficult.  "Both
models worked well overall, but remember that the low price is made
possile partly by abbreviated quality control.  One had a misaligned
back locking lever that needed help from my thumb with each film
change, and another had a focussing scale that did not agree with
visual focus.  However, my real gripe is the need for hard-to-fine
34.5 mm filters. ... The Seagull line has long been respected for its
impressive optical performance ... ."

Imported by:
http://www.phoenixcorp.com/
http://www.phoenixcorp.com/Cameras/Twin_Reflex/twin_reflex.html
(516) 764-5970

My comments: As to this difficulty in getting accessories, we're
talking about on the cheap.  Yes, its easier to get accessories for my
Rollieflex Automat/MX but $40 for one filter?  $75 for a close up
lens?  Getting used cameras is always risky; the Seagulls are new. 
So, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Dan


From: [email protected] (zhang)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Opinions on Seagull TLRs?
Date: 1 Jan 2002 

...

Used old model Seagulls and other Chinese TLRs are still easy to find
at about $20 in Beijing. Old Model Seagull 4 can be found for about
$40. These are all 3 element lens design. The new Seagull 4A-105-107
has better finish but not that much better otherwise. I would never
buy a Seagull 107 for even $100 when I can buy a similar camera at 1/5
of the price.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]>
Subject: Possible accessary lenses for DF-2

The 125mm/4 and 180/4 lenses for SEHENLONG 120 SLR are provided with
a 39mm adaptor tube so that these lenses can be used on DF-2. The
300/5.6 and 300/4.5,500/5.6 and 1000/10 Russian mirror lenses can
also be used with a 42m-39m adaptor ring.If someone can develop a
wide angle lens for it, the DF-2 would have a quite complete lens
line.Besides, there are also many high quality lenses for large
format cameras that can also be used if you want.


Zhang


rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (CharlesW99)
Date: Sun Oct 21 2001
[1] Re: Seagull

For Portraits; the Seagull should do fine...the lens is like a Yashica A
(3 element) quite sharp when stopped down to f11....but for
portraits...you don't want a really sharp lens anyway! (Of course, if
trying something cheap is your wish try getting a Lubitel (Ukrainian)
TLR)...I got one on eBay for $25 and it does take reasonable
pictures....the viewfinder is rather toylike though....

However, for not much more, you can get a (used) Rolleicord which has a
better transport system and a better (4 element) lens. I have an old
Rolleicord model IV which is one of my best TLRs; I can't easily tell the
difference between it and my Rolleiflex 3.5 E as for print quality.

Charlie


From rangefinder mailing list:
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 
From: David Lewis [email protected]
Subject: Chinese cameras


For Jeff Duffy--

It is very nice of your colleague to look for cameras for you on her China
trip.   Unless she's well versed on cameras, it might be a bit difficult to
find what you will want, but it's worth a try.   Give her some pictures of what
you want to make it easier and to ease the communications difficulty..

I've bought three Haiou s (the 4A with the wind lever and the 4B with knob) on
various trips, typically for less than $30.  I bargained to those levels
without much effort.   These were for pretty clean cameras, but many you'll
find are filthy.  There are one or two dealers in the tourist market just east
of the Beijing Holiday Inn Lido

(I've purchased from these dealers, always with careful bargaining).  

There are also some in the tourist market at Tiantan (Temple of Heavenly 
Peace).   

There is a very fine pro dealer (but no old Haious or interesting collectibles) along
Xi Chang'An Ave a few blocks west of Tiananmen Square (souths side of street).

Then a block or so west of this store is a used camera store with interesting
Russian folders and perhaps some Chinese, but they're dirty and too high priced.

There are also various Seagull and Hongmei folders.  I bought a pair for about
$25--the Seagull/Haiou in fairly good shape but missing the back leather, and
the Hongmei in excellent condition.

What may well happen is that someone might have an old camera--Haiou or an
RF--in the family and be willing to part with it.   A customer in Anshan gave
me a family Haiou for which I was very grateful.   To them it was an obsolete
camera.  I bought 120 T-Max at that pro shop in Beijing and shot a few rolls
while in China 
(I had brought Nikons and hadn't planned on shooting medium format).   So your friend, 
since she has family in China, might well ask around her family and friends if they
have any obsolete cameras they'd like to sell.

Chinese people know that the Haiou twin lens is an old camera, and I've
had looks or comments from people who knew it was an old design.  I've had
other smiles from fellow Haiou users I've come across in China--brothers
in photography!  (I've also enjoyed meeting Chinese Nikon users and
shooting pictures of each other.)

Until about three years ago you could buy the Great Wall SLR for about $65
(which is what I paid) new, but I haven't seen any in the past two years.

I never found a clean enough and cheap enough RF in China, but wound up
buying one through Ebay from a seller close to my home in Pennsylvania.  
I've never seen the Leica copies we've all seen on ebay--but perhaps some
specialist dealers in China might have them (a Singaporean colleague gave
me the card of a collectible camera dealer near the Lufthansa/Kapinski
Hotel, but I haven't had the chance to look him up).

These cameras may not be great, but I've taken some excellent pictures
with them, and the 11x14s I've used in my PSA portfolios have been quite
acceptable!

  They are a lot of fun.

--David Lewis


From rangefinder mailing list:
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 
From: Kari Kuutti [email protected]
Subject: Re: [RF List] Chinese cameras?


Phenix 205 ES was the only traditional RF I saw when visiting Beijing
some time ago. Winfried on this list has recognized that the body of
Phenix 205 (which apparently has been long in the production) is a
copy of an early Konica. My experiences with the camera have not been
encouraging -- the specs are good, but the quality of the workmanship
leaves a lot to be desired. RF is probably the best part -- pretty
good, in fact. 2.8/50 lens is usable with smaller apertures. Film
transport in my example has not been completly reliable. I guess that
the quality between different units may vary greatly, maybe mine is a
lemon.

Had a Seagull TLR been in the same price category than Phenix (60
dollars) I would have bought one, but at least in central Beijing
they were priced at about 150$ (3-lens objective) and 200$ (4-lens
objective). I thought then that the price was unrealistically high,
but they seem to try to sell those Seagulls in both US and Europa at
about that same price, so perhaps somebody is buying them (instead of
old Rolleis, for example). They seem to be sturdy cameras and
probably a bit better done than my Phenix.

Phenix 205 and Seagull TLRs were the only "interesting " cameras in
the shops I visited. The main emphasis was clearly elsewhare -- in
SLRs and point and shoot things, there was plenty of both to select
from. Saleswoman in one shop tried her best to convince me that there
is no use to buy the Phenix RF, because Phenix SLRs are so much more
versatile, changing lenses and everything...

BTW, I have never seen so many camera repair shops than in Beijing.
They were everywhere were people were together spending time: in
parks, next to museums etc. Usually a kiosk selling tourist stuff and
drinks offered also a rapid camera repair...

--Kari Kuutti


From rangefinder mailing list:
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 
From: Dale Dickerson [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Chinese Cameras


If you  are looking for a bargain camera from China, I recommend the
Panflex Panoramic Camera. See the review in the current Shutterbug
(October) for details.

Seagull TLRs are fun. The lenses are newer version of the 1940s and
1950s on Rolleicords lens designs. They have MC on the lenses. The
quality is not equal to the Rollei. However, they are a great buy and
introduction to the TLR cameras. The GC-104 has a lens design much like
 the old CZ Triotar. At f3.5 the lens will be on the soft side, but some
people like that for portraits. The GC-107 has a lens design much like
the CZ Tessar lens. At f8-f16 the lens will be very sharp and make some
great enlargements.

Dale


From rangefinder mailng list:
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [RF List] Medium format folders.


cdawg wrote:

>I have found a new passion...Medium Format Folders.  It's great fun using
these cameras, and truly takes you back to basics.  I'm wondering if anyone
else out there uses these cameras...rangefinder of course, and what tips 
they might have to myself or anyone else out there involved or interested 
in these cameras.  

What types of film, what brand or brands of cameras they use.  I have an Agfa
Isolette III and a Voightlander Bessa II.

>Specifically, does anyone have any trouble with keeping the film from fogging
because of the red window frame counter?  And, do slower films reduce the problem?
What kind or brand of camera and lens combination have worked best.

Hello Clayton and everyone else,

I use MF folding rangefinders, I have worn out a Fujica GS645 (1987 vintage),
which was not too hard. I brought it a bit around the world, to the Galapagos
etc. The size of it makes it very easy to bring along, and it has a very good 
lens and accurate exposure meter. 

The disadvantages are electronic release for a mechanical shutter, silly in
my opinion, the filter is screwed into the lens hood, which is one with a
special fitting. No lens hood - no filter. 

Then there is a wire somewhere that runs thruogh a little hole
in some plastic, and that plastic gets worn and the wire stuck, and the release
does not work. This is a construction error, no spare parts aviable and no use
to get another one because the all have the same fault.

I also have a Seagull 203-I (1989 vintage), which I do not use, as it keep
scratching the film. It is one of the very last ones produced, they put them
together of whatever was left over. It has a plastic bellows, like the French 
Dehel cameras (Monte Carlo Sportsman) of the 1940's, a lens with three elements
in two groups (unusual, but not bad). It is very much a copy of a Super Ikonta III,
 but it does not have an automatic framecounter, maybe because both 4,5X6 and 6X6 can be used.

I started a mailing list for users of Chinese cameras, not only foldings, see
the signature.

Recently I got a CertoSix with a Tessar 80/2,8. One very big advantage of this
camera is that it does not have the front lens distance setting, all the lens
moves in and out, which means that the images will be as sharp on 11/2m as on infinity. So far 
I have not used it much, but I will. I also have a Super Ikonta III, which needs
some adjustment of the rangefinder alignement, got it cheap.

I never had any fogging from the red window on any camera (only the Seagull has
a red window of the rangefinders, but I have a lot of other ones). Thinking of
it, I have a Moskva-2 also, which was in a very poor shape and very non-functioning 
when I got it. Now it is functioning (I got it only to learn how to repair such
cameras), does not fog anything through the red window, but I can make it leak a bit of light 
through the back door if I really try to.

I usually use Efke R50, sometimes R25 and often R100, rarely any 400 ASA 
films or colour films.

As a new member I should introduce myself, but I hope that the above will 
do.

Per B.
The mailinglist for users and collectors of Chinese Cameras;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chinesecameras


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: A Chinese 120 SLR with Russian 5.6/300 lens


Today I tried to mount the Russian 5.6/300 mirror lens on the Great
Wall 120 SLR with a m42-39 adaptor ring and adjusted the forcusing
distance in two minutes. The adjusted lens still focuses to about
1.7M and give you a full frame image.

The lens can be found sometimes for about 50 USD in Beijing with 5
67x0.75 filters included.The camera I think I paid 15USD a few years
ago. What an amazing value for a 120 format outfit!


Zhang



From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Re: A Chinese 120 SLR with Russian 5.6/300 lens

--- In chinesecameras@y..., "Per Backman" pbackman@a... wrote:
> tigerarm2000 wrote:
>
> >
> >Today I tried to mount the Russian 5.6/300 mirror lens on the Great
> >Wall 120 SLR with a m42-39 adaptor ring and adjusted the forcusing
> >distance in two minutes. The adjusted lens still focuses to about
> >1.7M and give you a full frame image.
> The 300mm is a lens for 35mm cameras? Focuses from infinity to
1,7m? Or the other way around?

The 5.6/300 is a lens for 35mm format and it is a multi coated Mirror
lens called MC3M-7 that was discussed some days ago on Russian
Cameras forum.The modified lens does not change focusing distance
very much still from about 1.7M-infinity.

> The Great Wall costed 995 Crowns here some ten years ago, I do not
know how many dollars that could have been then, some 150-160
perhaps.

Today a used DF-2 can be found for 30USD in Beijing.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Great Wall 6X6 SLR and extension tubes, some experiences

The Great Wall SLR comes only with one lens, no other are aviable. Of course
most work can be done with a standard lens, that is why it is called a standard lens. The
only accessoires I know of are extension tubes and a set to use a special
paperbacked 35mm film. (Or is it 828???). Any extension tubes with a 39mm Leica-mount will fit,
so that is something, that is easy to find.

The normal purpose for extension tubes is to make macropictures, but it is also
possible to attach an enlarger lens as a telelens, but without focussing (unless you have a
bellows, of course). I have used a 135mm enlarging lens as a short tele, the
distance is fixed, but it was quite easy to find a combination of extension
tubes to make portraits.

There is however one problem with the Great Wall and extension tubes, and that
is vignetting. The vignetting is caused by the lower film compartement, which
reaches in to the round opening for the lens. With the lens normally mounted it does not
cause any problem, but already with some 20mm extension it gets visible, more in the
viewfinder, than on the film, but it is there. The smaller aperture, the worse
it gets.

If you use 4,5X6 cm with the mask it is not so much of a problem, a much longer
extension is needed before it gets visible in the negative, but on the other
hand, in practice you can only make horizontal pictures. Flowers and faces are vertical
(usually), and it is of course possible to make vertical pictures too, but
looking into the viewfinder will be a bit complicated.

The Great Wall is still good for macro pictures, either by using close-up
lenses or by using a telephoto or even standard lens for a Leica or Zorkij
directly mounted on the camera. The longer working distance of the Great Wall will make them 
macro-only lenses. The very great plus is that you get the parallaxfree focussing on 
the focussing screen.

Per
The PHOTO page; Images (nude), B/W Formulae (lots of them);
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Some interesting new products


A manufacturer in Hangzhou developed a series of digital film backs
for 120 SLRs such as Hasselbald.The top model has a 16 M. resolution
but must be connected to a computer therefore it is intended for
studio shooting only. The price is about 30,000 US dollars if my
memory serves.

Another company also in Hangzhou called SHENLONG developed a 360 deg.
swing lens 120 camera. The camera is equipped with 2 lenses 4/75 and
125/4 and has a speed range of 8"-1/60". The whole outfit includes
the camera body,2 lenses,a tripod.and an aluminum case costs 28,000
RMB (USD 3,500). But the special enlarger alone costs another
38,000RMB.
The company also offers a 120 SLR with a format of 60mmx80mm.The
camera has only one speed 1/30" for flash so it is also intended for
studio works only. the basic outfit includes a camera,a125/4 or a
180/4 lens and costs RMB2980(USD350).

My impression is that Chinese Photo industry is trying to catch up
and some of the companies might be competative in a few years.So we
just wait and see.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [RF List] Chinese cameras?


Freestyle in Hollywood, CA sells a cheap plastic camera that takes 1/4 frames
at 1/4 second intervals.  They call it a Lomo but it's made in China instead
of Russia.  I can't get all the frames in focus, perhaps something about a
sprocket not engaging properly,  and 1/4 second intervals are usually too
short for interesting differences between frames, but it's a neat & fun
concept.

- Dave Mason


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Stuff in china

....

Sorry, I forget to mention the price.

Russian cameras i.e Zorkis,Feds,Kievs etc are common in China.Except
for Fed 5s which sells for about 40 dollars, all other common Russian
models sells for 60-70 dollars. But less common models such as
Leningrad, Kiev 5,Start,Horizont etc sells more.Sometimes You can
find a Zorki c or a Zorki 2c for 30 dollars.

The various models of Chinese TLRs are also very common. A common
Seagull 4B usually sells for 15-20 dollars. A Seagull 4A sells for 30-
40 dollars.A Shanghai 58-II usually sells for 150 dollars.Price for
this Leica copy has going up in recent years.

If you need additional information about used cameras in China,
Please let me Know.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Seagull/Shanghai 6X6 variations

Here is a list according to St. Denny, with my comments,

Shanghai 201, a copy of Agfa Isolette, with hinged masks for 4,5X6, lens 
S.C.60 (three elements, three groups) 75/4,5, shutter 1/10-1/200, no 
sync,selftimer or double exposure prevention, made in 1959?

Shanghai 202, a copy of Agfa Isolette, with hinged masks for 4,5X6, lens S.C.60
(three elements, three groups) 75/4,5, shutter 1/10-1/200, with sync and
selftimer but no double exposure prevention, made in 1960-63?
Shanghai 203, with hinged masks for 4,5X6, lens (three elements, two groups)
75/3,5, shutter 1-1/300, with sync, selftimer,double exposure prevention, 
fast wind lever, EV values and a film type dial on the left side, rangefinder, made in 1963.

Seagull 203 (1st variation), as Shanghai 203, made 1964-75?
Seagull 203 (2nd variation),  as the 1st var, but with an accesory shoe in
stead of the film reminder dial, the fast wind lever is of plastic in stead of
metal and no EV values, made in 1976-85

Seagull 203-H, as 2nd. var, but the top is of black plastic, made in 1985-86?
Seagull 203-I, like 2nd var., but the accesory shoe is replaced by at hot shoe.
The top cover on the camera on the pictures in the leaflet ("Manual") is black,
but I think that on all cameras imported to Sweden it was metal (chrome, if you like). The
bellows is plastic. Dennys does not mention this one. i bought mine 
January 4th, 1989, I think it was the last one.

Per B.


From: [email protected] ("Ravi Pendkar")
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Seagull WWSC 120
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001


>Not new to cameras, but only 35mm so far (Nikon, Pentax, Leica).
>Out of curiousity to have a bigger negative, am making my first foray into
>the medium format world with the above
>Seagull 6 x 6 .....
>Have not even shot my first roll of 120 , so no tales to tell yet !
>Anybody used this camera before with good results ?

>The instructions say to use 120 film.
>Would it also take 220 ?

>Any info appreciated.

Do you have the 4A-105 or 4A-107. The 105 has 3E taking lens while the 107
has 4E taking lens?

I bought the 105 a couple of months back at a local store for $200.
The 107 was not availabe :(

My experience with this camera has been very good so far.
The focussing is very accurate with the split prism. Composition
is fun with the bright finder. Looks like a jumbo lcd screen on
a digital camera.

I bought a Vivitar 285 auto flash which I use off the camera,
bouncing it off a white board. The hotshoe on the camera looks
weak, so I was very careful when I used it. I think that its
meant for a small&light flash.

I bought a sekonic meter. non-digital, reflective type.
I was surprised that the 3 element lens can produce very nice
images. I've been trying out simpler technology stuff ever
since I got some really nice results from doing black&white
processing and printing in a darkroom two years back.

I mostly make 8x8 color prints for my family albums these days.
You can see some of my tlr pics at
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/upasanapen?d&.flabel=fld6&.src=ph

A google search for 'Seagull WWSC 120' turned up interesting
links and some concerns regarding changing shutter speed setting
after winding to the next frame. I've not had any problems
like this so far.

have fun shooting, its springtime!

-Ravi Pendkar


From: "Gerald Loban" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
Subject: Re: SEAGULL 4A-107 Medium Format TLR Camera
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002


First - This is an Auction and should be stated as such.

Second - The Seagull 4A is worth about $70 on the market, even Mint. They
are poor mechanically and mediocre optically. I doubt if anyone would go for
your $200 on this one. Also, there is a large number of these around, so
they are not neither rare nor collectible.

"Isaac Chen" [email protected] wrote 
> SEAGULL 4A-107 Medium Format TLR Camera
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1341867188


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: 34mm filters for the Seagull TLR, who makes them and where to get
them.

Hello,

Surprisingly noone has asked about filters and lenshood for the Seagull TLR
yet, the list has existed for over a week. One could expect that everyone
selling Seagull
cameras should have them, but this is obviously not the case. Either these
vendors are not proffesional enough or they are just not caring about the
costumers.

Anyway, Segull makes, or sells under their own name, yellow, yellow-green,
orange, red, UV filters and +2 and +3 close-up lenses. Using the close-up
lenses is a bit of
the problem, as they are plain lenses, there is not a pair, in which one lens
compenstates for parallax. There is also a plastic lenshood 36mm push-on,
specially for the Seagull TLR.

Kenko also makes 34mm filters and close-up lenses.

Heliopan makes filters etc. in all possible sizes, 34 mm is one of the possible
ones.

Heliopan 34mm is sold by Brenners in Germany, I do not know about the rest. I
need some help to fill in here. In Sweden Photax provides all accessoires
needed for the Seagull cameras they sell.

Per B.


from chinese camera mailing list:
 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:55:47 +0100
   From: Joerg Daehn 
Subject: Re: 34mm filters for the Seagull TLR, who makes them and where to get
them.

Hi,

> Heliopan 34mm is sold by Brenners in Germany, I do not know about the rest.
The Heliopan range in the new Brenner catalogue 4/01 starts from a diameter
of 49mm. But maybe you can contact Heliopan directly and find out:
[email protected] or  Tel. 0049 89 8543006

> I need some help to fill in here. In Sweden Photax provides all accessoires
> needed for the Seagull cameras they sell.
Brenner sells also accessoires for the Seagull TLR which they call B.I.G.
Twin.

B.I.G. stands for Brenner Import GmbH, I think.

They offer the big twin 4 in grey and  blue (~200 Euro) and the big twin 3 in
standard black leathering (50 Euro cheaper).

The range of accessoires includes:

Order. No.      Item            Price in DM, just divide by 1.958 for Euro
8201034         Sun hood*       21,50
8240134         UV-Filter               33,50
8243034         Skylightf.      33,50
82100834        Yellowf.                33,50
82102234        Orangef.                33,50
82102934        Redf.           33,50
82101334        Greenf.         33,50
82415034        KB 15 (80A)     33,50
8272334         Polfilter linear        45,00
8257134         Softener                39,95
8246234         Closeup-lens +2 33,50**
822281          Filter-Adaptor for E 49 22,00***

*Ed. note: Sorry, translation is not good
**needed two times.
***Ed. note: Probably to attach 49mm filters??

I do not own this camera so I am not familiar with the accessoires. Please
forgive me if something is wrong.

I hope the order no. are correct. Nothing garantueed, though.

Best Regards,

Joerg



From chinese camera mailing list:

   Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:03:53 -0000
   From: "tigerarm2000" 
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese cameras (1956-1960)


Chrinicle of Chinese Cameras (1956-1966)
Quote from Data of Mr.YU Zhemin

Year          Camera Model               Manufactere
1956          DALAI 35mm rangefinder     Beijing DALAI Camera factory
              71 120 folding camera      Tianjin camera factory
1957          DALAI 120 TLR              Beijing DALAI Camera Factory
              XINFU Model 1              Tianjin Camera Factory
              Shanghai 58-1              Shanghai camera experimental
                                         Group
              Shanghai 58-2              """""""""""
1958          SHanghai 58-3 120 folder   SHanghai Changcheng Gongyeshe
              Shanghai 58-4 120 TLR      Shanghai Damin Iron Works
              Zijinshan Z-120 TLR        Nanjing Movie equipment Works
             Changjiang 35mm            Chongqing Musical Instrument
                                         Factory
              Huashan 35mm               XiBei Optical Instruments
              Changle 120 TLR            """""""""""
              Nanjing 58-1               Nanjing Optical Instruments
              Nanjing 58-II              """""""""""""''
              FUZHOU 120 TLR             FUZHOU Camera Factory
              MinJiang 120TLR            """"""""""""
              PANDA 120 TLR              """"""""""""
1959          ZIJINSHAN Z-135 SLR        Nanjing Movie Equipment Works
              Shanghai 201               SHanghai Nr.2 Camera Fasctory
              Lantian 120 simple camera  Beijing Camera Factory
              XinGuang 35mm simple camera """"""""""""""
              QianJiang simple 120        HangZhou Optical factory
              ChengGuang 135mm SLR       Tianjin Camera Factory
1960          Momita 35mm Compact        Hangzhou Optical factory
              Shanghai 202 120 folder    Shanghai Nr.2 Camera factory
              Shanghai 60-1 120 Folder   Shanghai Camera Factory
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I will add more in future

Zhang

  Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:16:33 -0000
   From: "tigerarm2000" 
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras (1961-1965)


Chinese Cameras (1961-1965)
1961
ZhuJiang 60-1 120 folder
GuangZhu Camera Factory

TianTan 120 TLR
Beijing Camera Factory

ChangHong 120 TLR
Beijing Camera Factory

1962
Shanghai 4 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Shanghai 203 120 Folder
Shanghai Camera Factory

1963
ZhuJiang 60-II 120 folder
GuangZhou Camera Factory

1964
Shanghai DF 135 SLR
Shanghai CAmera Factory

Dongfang S-1 35mm Rangefinder
Tianjin Camera Factory

Shanhai 205 35mm Rangefinder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory

Seagull 4 (Shanghai 4) 120 TLR
Shanhai Camera Factory

Seagull 203 (Shanghai 203) 120 folder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory

1965
Seagull 206 half-frame 35mm camera
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory

Beijing 35mm SLR
Beijing Glass Research Institute


To be continued

Quote from Mr.Yu Zhemin

Zhang
-----------
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras(1966-1970)


1966
Seagull 4A 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1967
Seagull 4B 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull 207 Polaroid
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory

ZhuJiang 4(Pearl River) 120 TLR
Guangzhou Camera Factory


Changcheng (Great Wall) SZ-1 spring motor 35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory

1968
Seagull 4A-1 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull 9 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull 4C 120/135 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1969
East Wind 120 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull 208 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory

Dongfang S-2 35mm rangefinder
Tianjin Camera Factory

Seagull 205 35mm rangefinder
Jiangxi General Optical Instruments Factory

1970
Pearl River 7 120 TLR
Guangzhou Camera Factory

Quote from data of Mr. Yu Zhemin

To be continued

Zhang

------
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras(1971-1975)

1971
Seagull 209 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory

Red Flag 20 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera factory

1972
Xihu PT-1 35mm rangefinder
Hangzhou Camera Factory

Swan PA-35 35mm rangefinder
Haierbin Camera Factory

ZhujiangS201(Pearl River S201) 35mm SLR
jointly developed by JINGUANG,MINGGUANG,HUAGUANG,YONGGUANG
Instruments factories

Xiongmao(Panda) DF-1 35mm SLR
Haierbin Electric Meters Factory

1973
Beijing 35  35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory

Juhua 120 folder prototype
Changzhou camera Factory experimental group

Y-120 Swing head camera
Shanghai Camera Factory

Zhujiang H801 35mm electronic shutter rangefinder
Jointly developed by YUNGUANG,XINGGUANG,CHUANGGUANG,INSTRUMENTS
FACTORIES

1974
Hongmei 1
Changzhou Camera Factory

Hongmei 2 35mm simple camera
Changzhou Camera factory

Seagull DTS sport racing terminal camera
Shanghai Camera Factory

Xihu YC-1 TLR Polaroid camera
Hangzhou Camera Factory

Peony 1 120 TLR
Dandong Camera Factory

1975
Youyi SF-1 120 TLR
Wuhan camera Factory

Fengguang 120 TLR
Fuzhou Camera Factory

Seagull 4D TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
------------------------


Quote from data of Mr. Yu Zhemin

Zhang

---
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras (1976-1979)

1976
Great Wall SZ-2 35mm Spring-drive rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory

Huqiu 351 35mm rangefinder
Suzhou Camera Factory

Fengguang 1 120 TLR
Fuzhou Camera Factory

Qingdao SF-1 120 TLR
Qingdao Camera Factory


1977
Taihu 205 35mm rangefinder
Wuxi Camera Factory

Taihu 4B 120 TLR
Wuxi Nr.2 Camera Factory

Seagull KS Automatic Aperture 35mm rangefinder
Shaghai Camera Factory

Peafowl DF-1 35mm SLR
Haerbin Electric Meters Factory

1978
Peony 2 120 TLR
Dandong Camera Factory

Great Wall EF-1 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory

1979
Hongmei 5 120 TLR
Changzhou Camera Factory

Hongmei 4 35mm rangefinder
Changzhou Camera Factory

Pearl River EF 35mm Programed shutter Rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera factory

Pearl River P35 Electronic shutter 35mm rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera Factory

Dongfang S-3 35mm rangefinder
Tianjin Camera Factory

Great Wall GZ 35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory

Qingdao SF-2 TLR
Qingdao Camerea factory
--------------------------


Zhang
---
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras(1980-1981)

1980
YC-75x100 Portable Polaroid
Shanghai Movie Camera Industry Research Inst.

Seagull DF-1 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory


Seagull DF-2 SLR
Shanghai Camera factory

Huqiu Q121 120 TLR
Suzhou Camera Factory

Great Wall DF-2 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory

Taihu DC-1 120 Folder
Wuxi Nr.2 Camera Factory

Baihua EF-1 35mm Rangefinder
Nanjing Optical Instruments Factory

Huashan AE 35mm automatic rangefinder
Xibei Optical Instruments Factory

Huaguang SZ-1 35mm Simple camera with build-in flash
Huabei Optical Instruments Factory

huguang DS 35mm rangefinder
Huguang Instruments factory

Huaying SF-1 120 TLR
Mingguang,Huaguang Instruments Factories

Huazhong SF-1 120 TLR
Huazhong Precision Instruments Factory

Zhujiang H801 35mm camera
Yunguang,Chuanguang,Xingguang Instruments Factories

1981
JG304A 35mm Rangefinder
Changzhou Nr.1,Nr.2 Cameras factories,Shuzhou,Wuxi Cameera Factories
jointly developed

Hongmei 5 120 TLR
Changzhou Camera Factory

Seagull DF-120 120 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull KJ-1 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory

Seagull 4B-2 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

Taihu TH203 120 folder
Wuxi Camera Factory

NP-75 Camera
Shanghai Movie Camera Industry Research Inst.

Zhujiang F35 35mm rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera Factory
--------------------------------

To be continued


Zhang
----
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Chronicle of Chinese Cameras(1982-1988)

 The chronicle ends in 1988,to keep the list relatively short, I will
delete the simple cameras models that are not worth mentioning.
1982
Seagull DF-3 35mm SLR
Shanghai camera factory

Phenix JG301 35mm rangefinder
Jiangxi Optical Instrument factory

Lark 821 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory

1983
Huqiu HQ-122 120 TLR
Suzhou Camera Factory

Huaxia 821 (Lark 821) rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1984
Seagull DF-1 ETM 35mm SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

JG 303 35mm SLR
Jiangxi Optical Instrument Factory and others

Great Wall DF-3 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory

Huaxia 841 35mm rangefiner
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1985
Qingdao 6
Qingdao Camera factory

Great Wall DF-4 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory

Zhujiang(pearl river) 207
Jinguang, Huaguang instruments factories and others

Huaxia 851 35mm SLR
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1986
Seagull DF-300 35mm SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1987
Swan HZ27 35mm SLR
Haerbin Camera Factory

1988
Huaxia 823 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory

Huaxia 841 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory
The End
----------------------------------

Zhang

===
[Ed. note: this web site has many chinese camera model photos...]
From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Registration to Chinese Website?


The characters below the 2 blank boxex on the left side is for
registration application.
The blank boxes with a red star must be filled in.
1.name
2.password (english is OK)
3.confirmation of password
4.question for password
5.answer
6.e-mail address
----------------------
following blank boxes should be filled at your will.

1.name
2.sex
3.birth date
4.address
5.phone number

you can fill none to the following boxes.

website: www.ccc2000.com.cn


Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Seagull 4A-107

jennydew at [email protected] wrote:

> I'm trying to try out MF & thinking of purchasing the above TLR due
> to recommendations from some people. As I do not have any experience
> with TLRs, nor with Seagull cameras, can someone please tell me if
> the above camera is really good for its price? And what is the
> difference between a 3-elements lens version & a 4-elements lens
> version?


Whether it is good for its price depends on how much you are paying.
For $ 100 it's a great camera.  For $ 150 it's an OK camera.  For $ 200
it costs too much.

I don't know too much about the current ones, but the previous ones suffered
from serious quality control issues and weren't very reliable.  I have three
or four and the shutters have died on all of them.

Depending on your budget, you might be better off with a used Rolleicord,
Yashica 124G, or one of the other older TLR cameras.

Bob



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: A bit Histroy of PHENIX

Hi all,

I saw some members had some confusion about the Phenix company.
Now it seems Phenix has some good marketing and is now better known.
This is a bit of off-topic but it seves to clear some confusion.

The JiangXi Optics General Factory (Now Phenix Corp.) was formed in
August 1965 with people and equipment from Shanghai No.2 Cameras'
Factory and other 5 factories  in a inner province JiangXi.
It launched production of Seagull-205 later Phenix-205 in 1969 and
produced some models such as JG301 rangefinder and JG303 35 SLR in
1983. It bought the production line of Yashica FX-3 from Japan in

1985 and Produced Phenix 35mm SLRs. The company also produce
binoculars ,microscopes,etc. The Pentax K-1000 copies were produced
by another well Known Chinese compay - Mingguang Instrument Factory.

Best
Zhang


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] GX/FX selftimer??

 [email protected] at [email protected] wrote:
> Is there any difference in the Compur and the Copal shutter or is it simply a
> manufacturing company name for the same type shutter?


The Compur, Copal and Seiko shutters are all very similar mechanically, and
all work well.  They were made by different companies, of course, with the
Compur being the original and the others copied from it.

Functionally you won't find any difference, although I think maybe the
scales move in opposite directions on some of them.

Interesting that if you buy a Rollei GX/FX you are probably getting the
identical Japanese shutter used in the Chinese Seagull 4A-109!

Bob



From rollei mailing list:
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] GX/FX selftimer??

 Philippe Tempel at [email protected] wrote:
> It only has a shutter going to 1/300 sec which is a
> step back IMO.

The newest one, 4A-109 has 1/500.

Bob


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] GX/FX selftimer??

Fox, Robert at [email protected] wrote:
> Ouch!  I'll bet Rollei would not like its GX/FX buyers to know that their
> $2K camera has the same componment as a Seagull!
>
> R.J.

Why not?  It's a perfectly respectable Seiko shutter, used in many cameras
for years.  BTW, it's why that one model Seagull sells for $ 350.

Bob


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 
From: Philippe Tempel [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] GX/FX selftimer??

--- Byron Rakitzis [email protected] wrote:
> Are there *ANY* production cameras with mechanical
> leaf shutters which
> feature a self-timer these days? I don't know of
> any, but my experience
> is limited to Hassy, Rollei TLR, and Copal shutters
> in large format.

Only the Seagull AFAIK.  I wasn't sure initally, but
this web site confirms the self timer:

http://home.infi.net/~hudsonch/seagull.htm

It only has a shutter going to 1/300 sec which is a
step back IMO.



From chinese camera mailing list:
  Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:29:31 -0000
   From: "tigerarm2000" 
Subject: Re: Seagull DF-2?

--- In chinesecameras@y..., Bob Shell bob@b... wrote:
>  tigerarm2000 at tigerarm2000@y... wrote:
>
> > No, a Black DF-1 is still a DF-1. DF-2 was offered beginning from
> > 1981 in both white and black versions. The black version is much less
> > common. The seller of the DF-2 must be very happy with the lens so
> > that only the body is for sale.
>
> Do you know in what way it differs from the DF-1 ?  The photo on eBay is of
> such poor quality that I really can't tell much.
>
> Bob


There are some changes during the production of Seagull Df series.

1,eliminating the provision for a winder.
2,eliminating the mirror lock up feature.
3, Adding a hot shoe
4, Flash syncho- speed from 1/45-1/60
5, a different mount on a DF-1ETM with a built-in meter.

So feature wise there is not too much. But I have seen very few black
DFs. I still havn't found the book for the description of a DF-2.

Regards

Zhang

[Postscript:

I dug out the book" The repair manual of Chinese cameras" and it says
DF-2 is an improved version of DF-1 with fresnal split image viewing
screen and TTL metering needle type(ASA100. EV2-EV-18).It says it is
only a prototype. If that is true, it is a very rare Chinese camera.
I wished to send you an off-list message but could not find your
email address.]


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Seagull TLR
From: zhang xiaokang [email protected]

> Zhang,
>
> How many models of seagull TLR are available in the market?
> I thought that
> they are still being produced as of this date, right?
>
> allen
> -----------------

Allen,


For new cameras , there are Seagull 105,107 and 109 in the stores at the
prices from RMB1,000-3,000.

For used cameras, there are Shanghai 4 ( the first model of Seagull TLRs)
and Seagull 4,4A,4B, 4B-1,4C(dual format 120 and 135).

And there are also many Chinese copies of Seagull TLRs such as Easter,
Peony,Friendship,etc.

There are also Seagull TLRs with different names designated perhaps by the
importers of foreign countries.

I have an impression that these Chinese TLRs are being collected since good
example are harder to find and if found are often sold at higher prices.
Perhaps the new Seagull 107 and 109's prices had an influence on the used
ones.

I think Russian cameras have retained their value very well during the past
years recession in China. During the past few years everything was hard to
sell.



From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Seagull TLR
From: Bob Shell [email protected]

 zhang xiaokang at [email protected] wrote:

> For new cameras , there are Seagull 105,107 and 109 in the stores at the
> prices from RMB1,000-3,000.

So a Seagull 109 sells for RMB 3,000 ?  That's about $ 363.00 !  That's more
than the official list price of the same camera in the USA.  Does anyone
actually buy them at that price?  Is it possible to haggle on prices in
these Chinese stores?

This is one aspect of shopping in some countries which I have trouble
adjusting to.  I have a friend from England who is great at haggling and
always can get things at a really good price.  I've learned a few of her
secrets by observation.  The last time I was in San Marino I was haggling
over two different items and finally got the shop owner down to a price I
was comfortable with for one of them, after which he proceeded to wrap both
up! I had unknowingly been haggling on the price of both items together.
Such a deal!, as they say in NYC.

Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Seagull TLR
From: zhang xiaokang [email protected]

...(above post quoted)

Bob,

Sorry for the confusion. The RMB3,000 some price was for a Gold plated
edition TLR. I don't remember the exact price of Seagull 109. I only had the
impression it was quite high for a camera that is not much different from a
Seagull 4B sold a few years ago for RMB65. While it is a common practice to
haggle over prices at second hand shops, no one would haggle over prices for
new items. Prices at big stores for new items are fixed.

At flea market in Beijing, it is wise to start at 20% of the asking prices
for some so called antiques.:-)


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Seagull TLR
From: Bob Shell [email protected]

...

According to the US importer the 109 sells for a much higher price than the
others because it has a Japanese shutter instead of the Chinese one.  The
shutter is certainly different since it goes to 1/500 instead of 1/300 like
the old ones.  If it is, indeed, a Japanese shutter it must be a Seiko.

Bob


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 
From: Juhani Halmeenm�ki [email protected]
Subject: Vs: Digest Number 58

And I just found this in swedish importers website:
Phenix was grounded 1965 in China, and is one of the largest optical factories
with 4500 workers, 700 engineers&technicians for
camerasµscopes&binoculars. Phenix has 18 factories in China and offices in
HongKong & USA. A lot offproduction goes for foreign brands, "OEM".

The last sentence made me think it must be Seagull, rebadged?

The cameras are here:

http://www.photax.se/indx/Indxsys.htm

Text is swedish, but the pictures not...


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Great Wall DF-6 and Pilot Super


Hi Per,

Have you ever seen a Great Wall DF-5 or DF-6 in person? I saw A Great
Wall DF-5 but I could not tell it from the DF-4 except that it has a
real leather case and sold for RMB1,500 if my memory servies. I heard
these are the last batch of the DF-4 (only a few hundreds units)and
the factory reprinted the instruction manual and called it a DF-5 and
sell it as a collector's item.

It was also rumoured that a 5 element lens was made for Great Wall
DFs.  Perhaps a DF-4 with a 5 element lens was called a DF-6? I have
never seen a DF-6 in China.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Great Wall DF-6 and Pilot Super

It is usually said that Great Wall is a copy of Pilot Super, I would say it is
based on Pilot Super. I have been curious about this Pilot Super and Pilot6 ever since I bought my
Great Wall, and now finally I found one, that was not to expensive (and, of
course, in a not too good shape).

The flash sync is an obvious difference, the most striking difference is that
Great Wall is bigger, both the body and the lens. The Pilot has a film compartment sticking out
on top, Great Wall has it within the cubic form. The back lock is on top of the
film compartment on Pilot, on the Great Wall it is on the bottom.

The viewfinder hood of Pilot has the magnifying glass in the upper cover, and a
sports finder, Great Wall has the magnifying glass in the back cover. The Great Walls lens
hood is more clever and stable, in my opinion. On the upper cover of Pilot is
also an extinction light meter, St. Denny thinks it is a pity it was not
copied, I do not. Who uses such a light meter?

The place for the cable release is the same on both, sockets are different, but
the same size. The Great Wall has one knob with a spring to hold the film spools, Pilot only
one, opposite the winding knob. On the back Great Wall has a screw to switch
visible windows between 4,5X6 and 6X6, with a cover over the unused size and a protection
cover for the used window, Pilot has one cover for all three windows (two for
4,5X6, the numbering for 6X9 was still used as there was no printing for 4,5X6), Pilot has it all on
the outside, Great Wall on the inside. The 4,5X6 mask is better and different in Great Wall.

Inside are some important differences, the lens mount is further from the film
plane in the Great Wall. The lens mount of Great Wall is "Leica" M39, the Pilots some 32mm.
The focal length of the Pilots lenses are 75mm (there was a choice, I have a
Ludwig Pilotar Cooke-type 75/2,9), Great Walls lens is 90mm. The mirror, and shutter, is
bigger in the Great Wall, I would think that is an advantage.

The best way to see the difference is to hold them in the hand, next best to
see a picture, to describe the difference in words is a substitute.

Per


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Re: OT: Seagull and Yashica--how closely do the parts match...?

 David & Leigh Ann Jonsson at [email protected] wrote:

> Since seeing the recent press on the newest Seagull cameras I'm struck by
> the similarity of their parts to the Yashicamats. I have two Yashicamats and
> it seems to me the Seagull nameplate and wind knobs and back lock mechanism,
> among other parts, look so much like the Yashicas that I wonder--did Seagull
> get Yashica's old tools and dies?
>



No.  The Seagull 4A-109 only superficially resembles a Yashicamat.  They are
as much like Yashicamats as Yashicamata are like Rollei TLRs.  I have one of
the 4A-109 cameras right now and have been doing a little shooting with it.
It's pretty nice, has a four-element Tessar-type taking lens and a Japanese
Seiko shutter.  It's not a Rollei, but it is pretty decent in its own right.

Bob


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:11:01 -0400
   From: Bob Shell 
Subject: Re: Zeiss lenses in Shanghai cameras?

Per Backman at [email protected] wrote:
> Yesterday I found some webpages, according to which the lenses in the Shanghai
> cameras were made either in Germany or with help of German experts. Zeiss was
> mentioned.
>
> Is this just a rumour or is there something in it?


I have always heard that the Chinese learned lens making from German
technicians who were sent there by the German government, but have never
seen any specific citations to historical sources on this.  Supposedly, at
the same time the Germans sent brewmasters to teach the Chinese how to make
beer.

Bob


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:13:25 -0000
   From: "tigerarm2000" 
Subject: Re: Digest # 61-- Great Wall

--- In chinesecameras@y..., Bob Shell  wrote:
> on 8/16/02 12:59 AM, Kevin Kalsbeek at krkk@e... wrote:>
>
> I don't know how you tell model number, either.  It is not marked
on the
> camera, but only on the box.  Does yours have flash synch?  Later
ones have
> it.
>
> Bob

DF-2 without selftimer and flash socket.
DF-3 with a selftimer.
DF-4 with both selftimer and a flash socket.

Export version of DF-2 is somewhat better made with a back lock
button while domestic version has only a hook and has the model name
DF-2 printed on name plate.

Beijing Camera Factory made extension tubes to use the 90/3.5 lens on
35mm cameras with some focusing ability. the tube for 42mm mount
cameras could be used with a 42-39 adaptor ring on the Great Wall
with better quality 39mm screw mount lens. The Russian 110/4
enlarging lens is very sharp and can be used on a DF-2 for some work.

There is also a 2x teleconverter for this camera that with the
Russian lens it could focus from about 1m to infinite.

Zhang



Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Seagull TLR
From: zhang xiaokang [email protected]

> RMB65.00!!! that's around US$8.00; for a new one?  If my
> memory serves me
> right,  that's around 25% of the cost of a Lubitel!   Are you
> sure it's
> only a few years back?
>
> For a camera to be sold at RMB65.00 a few years back to the
> current
> RMB1,000, that seems to be a big leap in pricing.  There must
> be a drastic
> improvement on the new units to justify this new pricing

Allen,

I saw Seagull 4Bs were sold at the RMB65 in early 90's as the shops tried to
get rid of the cameras from their warehouse.

Then a couple of years ago I found new models i.e. Seagull 105,107 appear on
the counters of some big shops at a much higher price. I was not smart
enough to buy those RMB65 cameras. The new models have better finish, more
plastic parts. Seagull 109 is the latest release with an imported 1/500
shutter. Some people claim that the old Seagulls are actually better than
these new ones at a much lower prices. the earliest Seagulls are said to
have used lens elements from CZJ. So you can see we can trace everything
Chinese or Russian back to Zeiss.


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hi - just buying a "Great Wall" 6x6 - what should I ...

 D. Doe wrote:

>Any "heads up" on this camera. Off of Ebay ($75.00 +
>shipping);  having been wanting a medium format since
>I have always been a junkie for 35mm and 4x5 Graphlex.
>So , this is my entree' and inexpensive at that.
>However, have heard a few things.  In addition to just
>a few shutter speeds and f-stops, I heard the
>viewfinder was very low light.
True, it is quite dark.
>
>Q: Is it true that you open aperture fully, then
>focus, then return to f-stop prioring to taking a
>picture. Are the newer Great Wall's any
>better/different?  This has a 39mm screw mount lens
>operation.

Also true, all the models are the same. The differences are in flash-sync,
selftimer etc.

But it is a very cheap 6X6 SLR, and correctly used it gives good results.

Per
The PHOTO page;
Images (nude), B/W Formulae (lots of them);
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/


From: [email protected] (Harald Seffers)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: any Seagull TLR photos?
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002


J. Li [email protected] wrote:

> Does any one have sample photos (online) that were taken by Seagall TLR

http://www.belphoto.de/camera/seagull_a4/

Sorry, the text is German only. Scroll the page and click on the
pictures to see bigger versions. The files are scanned from cheap
prints, not from the negatives.

I flocked the camera inside, which is necessary to avoid stray light.



From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Seagull TLR as Kalimar Reflex, when?

Hello everybody,

Seagull TLR's have obviously been sold as "Kalimar-Reflex", I have seen one for
sale on Ebay. Does anyone here know when and what model(s)?

Per
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 
From: "tigerarm2000 [email protected]" 
Subject: Re: Seagull-205

--- In [email protected], Bob Shell bob@b... wrote:
>
> >>
> I don't know when the 205 was first made, but mine was made in 1983 or
> so.  The factory where these were made was in Shanghai, but was later
> shut down and converted to making sewing machines I was told.  I assume
> that current Seagull  cameras must come from a new factory.  The camera
> appears heavy and sturdy, but the shutter is the same one used in
> Seagull TLRs of that vintage and is not durable.
>
> Bob


The 205 was first made in 1964 by No.2 Camera factory in Shanghai and
was called Shanghai 205. The factory moved to Jiangxi province in
1969 and continued 205 production there and at this time it was
called Seagull 205 and later Phenix 205. A factory in Jiangsu
produced a copy of 205 and called it Taihu(Tai Lake)205.  The 205 was
one of the most popular and common 35mm Chinese cameras in the 70's
and 80's.

Since about last year, I saw an anniversary model offered in brown
leather and chrome lens tube for about $50.
The shutter needs periodic lubricating to have it run smoothly at
slower speeds.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Seagull-205

Hi Zhang,

In 1983 I was buying Seagull cameras, including the 205, directly from
the factory.  They were in Shanghai at that time.

Bob


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 
From: "tigerarm2000 [email protected]
Subject: Re: Seagull-205

...

Bob,

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. Now some brief history of Shanghai
camera factory:

Shanghai General Camera factory was formed in 1978 by Shanghai Camera
Factory, Shanghai No.2 Camera Factory and Shanghai No.5 Camera
Factory. Of the 3 factories,Shanghai Camera Factory was officially
established on March 17th,1958 and No.2 Factory was eastablished in
April 1959.

Some stuff employees and equipment of Shanghai NO.2 Camera Factory
was moved to Jiangxi province in 1965 to form Jiangxi General Optics
Factory together with other 5 factories.

So A Seagull 205 (Phenix 205) could have been produced in both
Shanghai and Jiangxi after 1969.

Zhang


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 
From: "Jay Y Javier" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re Lubitel 166

The Lubitels used the same three-element triplet until the last model.

As for the Seagull, look for a code in the taking lens (found on the ID ring)
which says 41.  In the older cameras, "Haiou-41" indicated a four element
triplet.

Jay  


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re Lubitel 166

Jay Y Javier wrote:

> In the older cameras, "Haiou-41" indicated a four element triplet.

A four element triplet???  That's be a pretty good optical trick!!!

The four element Haiou is a Tessar copy.

Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]
From: Zhang XK 
Subject: [Russiancamera] Many Chinese cameera photos


Hi group,

This is a bit OT but in case you are interested.

You may have a look at http:// baas. lamost. org/nmember/cam/cam.htm

I just found this web site for Astronomers but they also have many photos of
old Chinese cameras.

You can also do a search at goole and fill in Great Wall SZ-1 and there you
can find the web site.  

Best regards

Zhang



from chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 
From: "tigerarm2000 [email protected]
Subject: MuDan TLR family

MuDan TLRs were very popular Chinese copy of Rollei-cords and the
first model MD-1 was ranked No.2 at the 1982 national review of
cameras. During its production ran, Dandong Camera Factory developed
a series of models of Mudan TLRs:

1, Mudan MD-1, exact copy of Seagull 4B
2, Mudan MD-1A, the same as MD-1 but with an cold flash shoe.
3, Mudan MD-1D, with a built-in Cds meter with LED display.
4, Mudan MD-3, crank film winding with automatic film counting and
shutter cocking. Dual format of 6x6 and 4.5x6, 4 element 3 group
taking lens and 75mm/2.8 viewing lens.
The last two models are rarely seen for sale.

Most of Mudan TLRs were distributed in Northeast China where the
factory is located.

There are also many Chinese copies of the well known Seagull 4B
except the Pearl River 4 which was actually sold at a higher price
than a Seagull 4B and Mudan MD-1 despite its lower specifications.
However, the predessesor of Pearl River, the "Five Goats" has the
strangest name I have ever heard.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 
From: "tigerarm2000 [email protected]
Subject: www.sy916.com has a database of Chinese cameras


Hi all,

www.sy916.com the best web site for classic Chinese cameras has
openned a database for old Chinese cameras!

It was openned today or yesterday. It is really fascinating to see so
many Chinese cameras models listed. Unfortunaely, it is only in
Chinese. IMHO, the web site provides the most complete information
for old Chinese cameras than any other sources.

The database will continue to grow. It is far from completed yet if
it is possible to complete. I found many models that I have never
heard of before.

I might want to contact the site owner and make a suggestion that he
get the data published in a book with both Chinese and English
versions.

I think some members read Manderin. So please have a look.

Best regards

Zhang


from chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 
From: "Brian" [email protected]
Subject: RE: Re: Great Wall DF-4

> I don't know how to load the film

This may be difficult to do the first time, especially if you've never
loaded any sort of manual-winded camera before (even 35mm). Here's a quick
rundown:

Before: Only use 120 film. 220 film, although the same size, will not work
as it has no backing paper. Always load and unload in subdued light.

1) Make sure the take-up spool (the empty spool) is in the top winder of the
camera.
2) Unwrap the film and place it in the bottom winder so that the film can be
pulled upwards towards the take-up spool.
3) Pull the film up towards the take-up spool.
4) You will notice a small bit of paper folded under the end of the film
roll. This is what goes into the center of the take-up spool....so put it
there ;-)
5) Make sure there is a decent deal of play and wind the film at the top
until you see a white line on the back of the film at the bottom.
6) Close the back and open the red windows.
7) Depending on if you are shooting 6x6 ("12") or 6x4.5 ("16") continue
rolling until the number "1" appears in the appropriate window. Usually you
will see some indicators to let you know that the film is advancing and you
are getting closer to the next frame...Ilford and Fuji both like to use
circles of increasing/decreasing size.
8) Take a picture, then wind until the number "2" appears in the appropriate
window and so on

Enjoy!
Brian Q. Webb
[email protected]


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 
From: "tigerarm2000 [email protected]
Subject: Re: Seagull 4a-107

--- In [email protected], gerhard_ungerer gerhard_ungerer@y... wrote:
> In addition to the Great Wall, I added a Seagull 4a-107 to my
> repertoire (Per Backman's suggestion).  I am yet to use it (only
> arrived last night), but it seems that it did not come with a 6x4.5
> mask.  Do you know if there is a mask available for this camera?
>
> Gerhard

I don't have a 4A-107 but if the camera has a crank for film winding
like that of a 4A, it is a single format camera. Only 4B,4B-1 and
other Chinese clones of 4B that have 2 ruby windows have a 6x4.5 mask.
I heard one of the British photo magazines rated the 4A-107 one of
the greatest cameras. It should have a 4 element-3 group tesser type
taking lens.

If you have an interest in Chinese TLRs, please pay attention to an
early Shanghai 4 or single format Pearl River( a renamed Five Goats).
These have all metal parts and built quality and finish are
condierably better.The early single format Pearl River also has a
fresnel viewing screen. The latest Seagull TLRs are also very well
finished but have more plastic parts.

Zhang


From: Woo Chat Ming  [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap student camera?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 

I got a Seagull 18 years ago. It was Seagull 4A with 3 element lens. I just
sold it for US$38. The lens is unacceptable bad.

If you want a Seagull, don't buy a used one. Old Seagull is really bad.
The new Seagull are manufactured by joint factory of Minolta and Seagull
and it is much better.

And, don't buy the version with 3 lens element, it is bad ! I would rather use
a 35mm than this !

I have played with new Seagull on my hand and it feels quite good. However,
I have no idea about its lens.

Most of cheap MF camera doesn't have light meter. But correct
explosure is critical in making a good photo. You must invest something in it,
either use a 35mm camera with a gray card or just buy a handheld meter.
A MF photo explosed incorrectly is never better than a 35mm P+S.

Ming.

[email protected] wrote:
> They look nice - that's all I said. I thought I read a couple of good reviews in
> camera magazines though. They said that the 4-element version was better. I don't
> use one so I can't comment otherwise
...


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 
From: "Juhani Halmeenmaki" [email protected]
Subject: New Seagulls from factory??!!

I have finally gotten replies to my emails directly to factory, and
to my big surprise they are willing to sell to a private person! And
even prices sound very reasonable:

DF400A camera body 90.00usd/pc
DF400G camera body 80.00usd/pc
DF300A camera body(MD MOUNT) 80.00usd/pc
DF-5000 with POWER WINDER(MD MOUNT) 140.00usd/pc
28-70MM/F3.5-F4.5(MD MOUNT) 40.00usd/pc
28-105MM/F3.5-F4.5(MD MOUNT) 74.00usd/pc
SG-300 flash 16.00USD/PC
I anyone else is interested please email me privately! Prices are FOB
(no postage)


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: New Seagulls from factory??!!

Unless they have changed dramatically since I had dealings with them, 
plan on waiting at least six months for them to ship after they get 
your money, and after that they may ship the wrong items.

Bob
...


From: "Neil Purling" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Haiou lens
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 

Seagull 4A or 4A-1** would be a Rollieflex look alike, I think the lenses
varied. The latest variants having a 4 element in 3 group Tessar design.
The Seagull 4, 4B & 4B-1 are Rolliecord copies.
I used to have a 4B-1 and it had a 3 element.

I presently have a Pearl River 4S with 3 element lens.
Its a little prone to flare so i'm making up a lens hood.


From: "Roland" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Haiou lens
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 

"Neil Purling" [email protected] wrote 
> The seagull medium format TLR has a lens "Haiou". There is usually a number
> of some sort as well, (SA**).
> How can I tell which Seagull TLR has the 4 element, rather than the 3
> element lens.

I think you can tell from the model number. The 4A-107 has a 4 elements
taking lens while the 4A-105 has a 3 element taking lens. That is going by
the information I have found.

http://www.camerachina.com/page/p-04-tlr-camera.htm
http://www.kauserinternational.com/Photography/Seagull/Seagull%204A-105.htm



From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Huazhong TLR

--- In [email protected], "njp66" neil@s... wrote:
> I saw a mystery TLR and thanks toZhang's image files I identified it
> as a Huazhong. I have no idea what that means.
> More importantly it looks like a Seagull 4B I assume it also has a 3
> element lens as everything else is the same as the 4B.

There are 2 models of Huazhong TLRs. The early version is an exact
copy of Seagull 4B and the newer one is called SFJ-3 that has
multicoated lenses and an imported copal shutter with a top speed of
1/500. The lens is still a 3 element one.

HuaZhong was made in central China Hubei province. So the model name
means Central China.

Zhang


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 
From: "Bob Shell" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Chinese cameras


----- Original Message -----
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 
Subject: Re: [chinesecameras] Chinese cameras


> The main difference between the 4A-109 and 4A-107 is that 4A-109 has a
shutter (imported) down to 1/500 s in stead of 1/300 and wheels and a window
to set time and
> aperture. The lens and everything else is the same, so you get more for
the money with a 4A-107.


I have a 4A-109. It takes great photos, but the wheels for setting shutter
speed and aperture are very stiff and hard to turn. It was this way
straight out of the box. The US importer says they're all that way. It does
prevent you from changing settings by accident!

Bob


Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] That Li'l Red Book
To: [email protected]

 Zhang XK wrote:

> She liked the Leica M3 very much and ordered the Camera factory in Shanghai
> to make some to show the advatages of the Communist system. The copy of the
> camera was called Red FLag 20 and is said no more than 200 cameras were
> made. The production cost was about $6,000 in 1970's US dollars. Today  these
> sell for about $5,000 used as collector's items in Beijing if you could find one.
>
> Another copy of western cameras the even rare East Wind- a copy of
> Hassylblad 500C is even more expensive. One example sold in Singapore some
> years ago for about $16,000 dollars!
>

My collector friend Jack Naylor has one of each. He has all of the
lenses made for the Red Flag and all of the lenses made for the East
Wind as well.

Neither camera is an exact copy. The film magazine on the East Wind,
for example, is much better and far easier to load than Hasselblad.

Bob


Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 
From: Zhang XK [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] That Li'l Red Book
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]

> My collector friend Jack Naylor has one of each. He has all of the
> lenses made for the Red Flag and all of the lenses made for the East
> Wind as well.
>
> Neither camera is an exact copy. The film magazine on the  East Wind,
> for example, is much better and far easier to load than Hasselblad.
>
> Bob

To my best knowledge, Jack Naylor has the largest cameras collection in the
world.

The leaf shutter in East Wind' lenses has an additional 1/1000 speed. The
factory achieved the speed by using springs of some special metal and they
had to use two springs for the 1/1000 top speed.

China also made an exact Rolleiflex 2.8F copy, the rarest Pearl River 7. I
heard there is still some at the sales department of Guangzhou Camera
Factory for about $13,000 recently.

Zhang



[Ed. note: thanks to Barry for providing this URL link and info!]
From: Barry Toogood (Mentis) [[email protected]] 
Sent: Wed 12/24/2003 
To: Monaghan, Robert 
Subject: Seagull TLRs


Hi Bob 
For your Seagull TLR page (http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/seagull.html#wwsc), you might want to add a link to this page: 
http://www.camerachina.com/products_list.php?mid=1&cat=&offset=40 
This is the page where Shanghai Camera show the specs for their current 4A model range (105, 107 and 109). The last named one is a fairly recent launch and isn't covered by the various older notes on your Seagull page. Linking back to the previous page on the site (page 8 of cameras listing) also shows the current 4B model specs. 
For brevity, the 4B and 4A-105 use the 3-element taking lens, the 4A-107 and 109 both use the 4-element one. The 109 is an update with aperture and speed visible in a window on top of the viewing lens - like Rolleis. 
Keep up the good work! 

Barry Toogood 
UK 


From Minolta manual mailing list:
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Chinese Cameras

XKAES:
I can't remember if I sent this list yesterday. If so, here it is again.

You can select the ones you have and ship your list back to me for comments.

I don't think this list includes the Chinese "exacta"

Chinese Cameras (1961-1965)

1961
ZhuJiang 60-1 120 folder
GuangZhu Camera Factory
TianTan 120 TLR
Beijing Camera Factory
ChangHong 120 TLR
Beijing Camera Factory

1962
Shanghai 4 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Shanghai 203 120 Folder
Shanghai Camera Factory

1963
ZhuJiang 60-II 120 folder
GuangZhou Camera Factory

1964
Shanghai DF 135 SLR
Shanghai CAmera Factory
Dongfang S-1 35mm Rangefiner
Tianjin Camera Factory
Shanhai 205 35mm Rangefinder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory
Seagull 4 (Shanghai 4) 120 TLR
Shanhai Camera Factory
Seagull 203 (Shanghai 203) 120 folder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory

1965
Seagull 206 half-frame 35mm camera
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory
Beijing 35mm SLR
Beijing GLass Research Institute
Quote from Mr.Yu Zhemin

1966
Seagull 4A 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1967
Seagull 4B 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull 207 Polaroid
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera Factory
ZhuJiang 4(Pearl River) 120 TLR
Guangzhou Camera Factory
Changcheng (Great Wall) SZ-1 spring motor 35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory

1968
Seagull 4A-1 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull 9 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull 4C 120/135 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1969
East Wind 120 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull 208 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory
Dongfang S-2 35mm rangefinder
Tianjin Camera Factory
Seagull 205 35mm rangefinder
Jiangxi General Optical Instruments Factory

1970
Pearl River 7 120 TLR
Guangzhou Camera Factory
Quote from data of Mr. Yu Zhemin

1971
Seagull 209 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory
Red Flag 20 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Nr.2 Camera factory

1972
Xihu PT-1 35mm rangefinder
Hangzhou Camera Factory
Swan PA-35 35mm rangefinder
Haierbin Camera Factory
ZhujiangS201(Pearl River S201) 35mm SLR
jointly developed by JINGUANG,MINGGUANG,HUAGUANG,YONGGUANG
Instruments factories
Xiongmao(Panda) DF-1 35mm SLR
Haierbin Electric Meters Factory

1973
Beijing 35 35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory
Juhua 120 folder prototype
Changzhou camera Factory experimental group
Y-120 Swing head camera
Shanghai Camera Factory
Zhujiang H801 35mm electronic shutter rangefinder
Jointly developed by YUNGUANG,XINGGUANG,CHUANGGUANG,INSTRUMENTS
FACTORIES

1974
Hongmei 1
Changzhou Camera Factory
Hongmei 2 35mm simple camera
Changzhou Camera factory
Seagull DTS sport racing terminal camera
Shanghai Camera Factory
Xihu YC-1 TLR Polaroid camera
Hangzhou Camera Factory
Peony 1 120 TLR
Dandong Camera Factory

1975
Youyi SF-1 120 TLR
Wuhan camera Factory
Fengguang 120 TLR
Fuzhou Camera Factory
Seagull 4D TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

------------------------
Quote from data of Mr. Yu Zhemin

1976
Great Wall SZ-2 35mm Spring-drive rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory
Huqiu 351 35mm rangefinder
Suzhou Camera Factory
Fengguang 1 120 TLR
Fuzhou Camera Factory
Qingdao SF-1 120 TLR
Qingdao Camera Factory

1977
Taihu 205 35mm rangefinder
Wuxi Camera Factory
Taihu 4B 120 TLR
Wuxi Nr.2 Camera Factory
Seagull KS Automatic Aperture 35mm rangefinder
Shaghai Camera Factory
Peafowl DF-1 35mm SLR
Haerbin Electric Meters Factory

1978
Peony 2 120 TLR
Dandong Camera Factory
Great Wall EF-1 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory

1979
Hongmei 5 120 TLR
Changzhou Camera Factory
Hongmei 4 35mm rangefinder
Changzhou Camera Factory
Pearl River EF 35mm Programed shutter Rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera factory
Pearl River P35 Electronic shutter 35mm rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera Factory
Dongfang S-3 35mm rangefinder
Tianjin Camera Factory
Great Wall GZ 35mm rangefinder
Beijing Camera Factory
Qingdao SF-2 TLR
Qingdao Camerea factory

--------------------------
1980
YC-75x100 Portable Polaroid
Shanghai Movie Camera Industry Research Inst.
Seagull DF-1 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull DF-2 SLR
Shanghai Camera factory
Huqiu Q121 120 TLR
Suzhou Camera Factory
Great Wall DF-2 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory
Taihu DC-1 120 Folder
Wuxi Nr.2 Camera Factory
Baihua EF-1 35mm Rangefinder
Nanjing Optical Instruments Factory
Huashan AE 35mm automatic rangefinder
Xibei Optical Instruments Factory
Huaguang SZ-1 35mm Simple camera with build-in flash
Huabei Optical Instruments Factory
huguang DS 35mm rangefinder
Huguang Instruments factory
Huaying SF-1 120 TLR
Mingguang,Huaguang Instruments Factories
Huazhong SF-1 120 TLR
Huazhong Precision Instruments Factory
Zhujiang H801 35mm camera
Yunguang,Chuanguang,Xingguang Instruments Factories

1981
JG304A 35mm Rangefinder
Changzhou Nr.1,Nr.2 Cameras factories,Shuzhou,Wuxi Cameera Factories
jointly developed
Hongmei 5 120 TLR
Changzhou Camera Factory
Seagull DF-120 120 SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull KJ-1 35mm rangefinder
Shanghai Camera Factory
Seagull 4B-2 120 TLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
Taihu TH203 120 folder
Wuxi Camera Factory
NP-75 Camera
Shanghai Movie Camera Industry Research Inst.
Zhujiang F35 35mm rangefinder
Guangzhou Camera Factory
--------------------------------
The chronicle ends in 1988,to keep the list relatively short, I will
delete the simple cameras models that are not worth mentioning.

1982
Seagull DF-3 35mm SLR
Shanghai camera factory
Phenix JG301 35mm rangefinder
Jiangxi Optical Instrument factory
Lark 821 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory

1983
Huqiu HQ-122 120 TLR
Suzhou Camera Factory
Huaxia 821 (Lark 821) rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1984
Seagull DF-1 ETM 35mm SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory
JG 303 35mm SLR
Jiangxi Optical Instrument Factory and others
Great Wall DF-3 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory
Huaxia 841 35mm rangefiner
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1985
Qingdao 6
Qingdao Camera factory
Great Wall DF-4 120 SLR
Beijing Camera Factory
Zhujiang(pearl river) 207
Jinguang, Huaguang instruments factories and others
Huaxia 851 35mm SLR
Huaxia Optical Instrument Factory

1986
Seagull DF-300 35mm SLR
Shanghai Camera Factory

1987
Swan HZ27 35mm SLR
Haerbin Camera Factory

1988
Huaxia 823 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory
Huaxia 841 35mm rangefinder
Huaxia Optical Instrument factory

Roland F. Harriston


From chinese camera mailing list:
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
Subject: Seagull 203 and Zeiss-Ikon Super-Ikonta III 
We have been discussing Seagull 203 and mentioned that it is a "copy" of Zeiss-Ikon Super-Ikonta III. 
As I have both, I thought it might be a good idea to compare them. 
Seagull 203 is not really a copy of the Super-Ikonta III, not in the way a Moskva 1 or 2 are copies of 
Ikonta and Super-Ikonta. The Seagull is more inspired by the 
Super-Ikonta than copied from it. 
Both cameras are equally big and equally heavy. The finish of the Super-Ikonta is a bit more elegant, 
but the Seagull has more rounded forms. 
The Seagull has a rapid-advance lever, ruby windows, uses either 6X6 or 4,5X6 with a built-in mask 
and has double exposure prevention. The Super-Ikonta has 
automatic frame-counter and takes only 6X6. The automatic framecounter does not automatically 
make it a more advanced camera, only more complicated in 
construction, as automatic framecounteers were necessary for taking 6X6 on 120-film, which originally 
was stamped only for 6X9. There is a tiny inspection window in the 
back of the Super-Ikonta, where it is possible to see if there is film in the camera. 
Shutter, aperture and distance are rim-set (wheels) on the Super-Ikonta, Seagull has rim-set distance 
and time, but a lever for aperture and the self-timer, which the 
Super-Ikonta lacks. The Super-Ikonta has a synch contact on the shutter, Seagull on the left side of 
the top, where it also has a hot-shoe (later models). The Super-Ikonta 
has an accessoiry shoe in the middle of the top, and a film reminder on the left side (like earlier models 
of Seagull 203) and a X/M switch on the shutter.
The struts holding the base plate and the self-erecting mechanism are of different design, both seem equally good to me.
The rangefinder is the part that Seagull has certainly got from the Super-Ikonta III, the distance wheel 
is attached to the front of the lens by a lever (both cameras have 
front-element focussing). It is not evenly round, so when turned it makes another lever move up and 
down, and this lever in its turn is kept toward the focussing wheel by a 
spring connected to next lever, which goes in to the camera body and the very range-finder. Works 
OK, if the last mentioned lever gets in to the little slot on the lever 
touching the distance wheel, but it does not allways happen. On the Seagull the rangefinder can be 
adjusted by turning a screw on the lever under the distance wheel, on 
the Super-Ikonta there are two screws for the same purpose on the lever in to the camera body. 
I have not looked under the top plate, so I do not know what is under there, but the rangefinder seems 
to have the same base, the windows looks different, but work the 
same. 
The shutter release levers are almost the same on both cameras, the release knob is in the front of 
the top plate on the Super-Ikonta and in the middle of it on the Seagull, 
both with a cable release screw. 
The Super-Ikonta has a Synchro-Compur shutter, shortest time 1/500 s, Seagull has a shutter with 
1/300 s as shortest time. The lens of the Super-Ikonta is a Zeiss-Opton 
Tessar 75/3.5, on the Seagull a S-111-2 75/3.5. The closest range is 1.2m on both cameras. 
I hope it is possible to understand something from my descriptions, I am aware, that they are not very good. 
My opinion is, that even though Seagull 203 has borrowed some constructions from the Super-Ikonta III, it is not a copy.

Per 
The PHOTO page;  Images (nude), B/W Formulae (lots of them); 
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/ 



From: [email protected] (Scotty Fitzgerald)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Great Wall or Seagull or Chang-Cheng DF-4 Med Format Camera Wanted...
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 

Hi,
I have recently purchased a Seagull 4A-109, and I am quite happy with
it. I am building a website about my experiences at

www.troublepeach.com/seagull

Please view my pages and feel free to kibitz. I am not the most
graphical webmaster but I feel the info needs to get out. My website
features real-life cost experience as well as some examples of
photographs taken with the camera.
---
Scotty

[email protected] (Bob Monaghan) wrote:
>check with the chinese camera and the russian camera mailing lists
>(egroups.yahoo.com IIRC) for info on dealers and sellers etc.
>
>see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/seagull.html for related info etc.
>
>see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/blindresults.html for surprisingly high
>ratings in blind lens tests against much bigger $$ 6x6cm SLRs etc ;-)
>the camera has a fair amount of falloff in my tests, but at an optimal
>f/stop with high res. film it does surprisingly well for a $50-75 SLR ;-)
>
>have fun! bobm
>
>PS note the 90mm lens is about the only one you will find for this SLR ;-(



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