Related Local Links:
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Kiev88CM Review by Sam Sherman
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Iskra Folder
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Kiev Prisms in and for Hasselblad Users Notes
Kiev 88 SLR
Kiev 88 and Kiev 60 Buyers Guide by Edward Lau (Sept. 2000)

Related Links:
Kiev/USA (official USA importer/service)
Kiev 60 Manual (Hartblei) [8/2000]
Kiev related manuals (Hartblei) [8/2000]
Kiev related threads at medium format digest
Kiev Lenses and Post Soviet Photography Pages
Kiev Taiwan (Tip Thanks to Paulus Susilo Tjahjadi)

Alexander Kurz Photo Pages
Avoiding Frame Overlap Problems Tip (Thanks to Stacey!) [8/2003]
Fixing hole in Kiev 60 cloth shutter [5/2002]
Kiev Report Forum
Kiev 60 Calibration Pages (by Russ Hippert) [added 1/00, updated 8/2000]
Bob Reis' Kiev 60 Photo album pages
Matt's Kiev 60 Pages (specs, buying how-tos, loading etc. tips) [02/00]
Kiev 60 Lens Specifications/Resolution.. courtesy of Kevin Kalsbeek
Kiev Price Lists and Sources [04/00]
Kiev 60 Camera (Ralf Radermacher) [3/2001]
Kiev-Aholic's Pages (Kevin Ing - FAQ, MF, Lenses, Shopping..) [5/2001]
Kiev 60 Anonymous (Stephe's Kiev 60 articles, hacks..)[2/2002]
Kiev Lens Test...
Kiev Report Start
Kiev 60 pages [2/2003]

The Kiev 60 is a low cost medium format option shaped similarly to an overgrown 35mm SLR, and offering either 6x6cm or 6x4.5cm (in a modified body version). In general, I recommend you look at the 6x6cm version, since you can always cut the film down to 6x4.5cm if you need to do so. There is a conversion mask and modification of the gearing of the standard Kiev 60 to turn it into the Kiev 60 that is 6x4.5cm, along with a drop-in mask.

These cameras are enjoying renewed popularity after a positive review in Popular Photography and Shutterbug. Their key claim to fame is the relatively low cost of lenses and the entry level new medium format camera system. Most sources recommend getting one that was imported into the USA from KIEVUSA, which reportedly tears down and rebuilds entering Kiev-60 cameras to meet a higher quality standard.

Older Soviet and even many post-Soviet era cameras may have sundry problems with flare and film spacing issues, in particular. The flare issues are largely resolved by the new model or upgraded internal body black floculation (flat black material added to cover shiny internal metal and glass (mirror) areas which are the source of reflected light seen as flare on the film). Despite a reputation for flare, the typical Kiev lens (even single coated ones) are relatively less a source of flare than the bodies (although still more flare prone than the much more expensive European and Japanese lenses of higher cost competitors). Unfortunately, prices have been rising in the USA for these cameras, partly due to the cachet of things Russian and demand for such funky post-Cold War artifacts. The Popular Photography articles have not helped keep prices down either. When you could buy these cameras with lenses for circa $350 US, they were great buys. But for circa $750 US and up over $1,000 US, they are much less of a bargain IMHO. Used professional medium format cameras may be a better buy.

There is however a frequently cited reason to get the Kiev camera bodies - and that is the unique 30mm fisheye lens for medium format available for a mere $300 US (more imported via KievUSA with USA warranty). These fisheye lenses are rather unique in medium format photography, and so cheap that you could afford to buy the camera just to get the lens!

Kiev cameras can also be great buys is you intend to buy a number of lenses, as the Kiev/Arsenal Ukrainian lenses are relative bargains. Moreover, there are many older compatible lens mount lenses made by Schneider, Exakta, Zeiss, and other East German counterparts of the famous European optical houses which were split up between East and West Germany after the second world war. These lenses are relatively rare in the USA, but can often be had for modest dollars in former Soviet block countries and from distress sales by emigrants in the USA and elsewhere.

See the Kiev 60 FAQ for more about compatible Exakta 66 and Pentacon 6 lenses. However, be wary and check before buying. Some Kiev 60 cameras are being made in modified mounts (E.g., to take Kiev 88 lenses etc.). You also need to be careful if you need full 100% viewfinder, as some of the earlier models had both dim viewfinders and only modest (60%) coverage of the actual film area.

from kiev88 mailing list: Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 From: "omgphoto" [email protected] Subject: Re: K60 "do and don't do" Hi Adrian, I don't have the link for the actual "do's and don'ts", but here's the link for the film loading instructions. If you follow them to the tee, there will be absolutely no spacing problems. I would dry run practice with a sacrificed roll to get used to it. After a while, you'll be loading it in less than a minute. Here's the link: http://members.fortunecity.com/k7kkg/Kiev/k60filmloading.htm As far as do's and don'ts, here's what I can tell you: 1. Always advance the shutter cocking lever slowly and purposefully. 2. Never let the shutter advance lever slap back, but follow it back with your thumb so that it doesn't recoil too fast. 3. After exposing the film, try and advance the film and reset the shutter/mirror because if you accidentally point the lens towards the sun, the incoming beam of light could burn the cloth shutter and pinhole it, rendering it useless. 4. Always treat it with care. It seems hearty, but it's a precise instrument and could be knocked out of adjustment with improper care. That's all I can think of right now. If I think of something else, I'll post it. Miguel

From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Pentax 67 neg frame overlap
Date: Sat Apr 25 18:40:24 CDT 1998

chet provoda [email protected] writes:

>advance the film with a slow, steady stroke, and also try to make sure
>the film is nice and taught when loading.  Just for future reference,

Kiev (Kneb) MF cameras are notorious for this problem.

The best solution with my Kneb 60 is to use th new style (NHGII-800 and possibly other emulsions) spools as your take-up spools.

This has even worked for me with Kodak film that I haven't even had tim to punch the Fuji-style "grabber" hole (use a standard hole punch on non-fuji products) into the film's paper backing.

The spool features an inverted "T" molded inside the film leadr slot.

Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice & fax)

[email protected]

From: Ryszard Stasinski [email protected]
Subject: Response to Kiew lens quality opinions ?
Date: 1998-04-29

I really doubt that Kiev lenses have no multicoating. I have several Carl Zeiss Jena lens for MF and 35 formats, and some (post-)Soviet for 35 mm. I am using them through converters on Mamiya M645, and Canon EOS 10. Except for one or two _all_ of them are multicoated, some being up to 20 years old. I have been considering the purchase of 250/5.6 for Kiev 60 - it has an abbreviation 'MC' in its name, what do you think, what does it mean?

My experience with flare in East-European lenses is quite good. For example, Biometar 120/2.8 MC for Pentacon 6 (and Kiev 60) seems to be not worse from this point of view than Mamiya 645 80/2.8 N, but Sonnar 180/2.8 MC is not so good. Coating of post-Soviet 20/3.5 for 35mm cameras is quite good, too. BTW Biometar was CZJ name for Planar (5-element), CZJ had no rights to this name.

Kiev fish-eye has a very good reputation. The name for Kiev standard lens is Volna. I have a 35mm format Volna-9 50/2.8 for macro. This is my sharpest lens at around f=8!

General opinion is that unless you have no luck Kiev lens represent very high value for money, the price of a converter included.

Hope this helps.

Ryszard

From: Bart [email protected]
Subject: Response to Can anyone tell me anything about the Exakta 66 cameras and lenses?
Date: 1998-06-07

Latest issue (June, I believe) of Popular Photography has an extensive article on the Exakta 66 and Soviet/German cousins.

From: [email protected] (cure)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev USA vs. Continent Wide
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998

[email protected] wrote:

> find some other place to buy, an online auction or whatever. the price from
> the two outfits you mention are grossly overpriced for no other reason than
> profit. their cameras work just as well(bad) as the ones coming straight
> from ukraine. i bought several kievs over time from various russian traders
> and was very happy, at half the price of kiev usa.
>
> andre
>      

Maybe the reason they worked "(bad)" as you put it is that it wasn't purchased through Kiev/USA. They take apart and rebuild, then completley test the outfit *before* sending to the end user. As I'm sure you know, there is next to *no* quality control done at the Arsenal factory in Kiev.

Regards,

--
Michael Rubinsky
Sewell, NJ

From: Michael Kaiser [email protected]
Subject: Response to Can anyone tell me anything about the Exakta 66 cameras and lenses?
Date: 1998-06-09

I've got a Model II Exacta 66, and find it is built like a tank except for the film wind lever. It doesn't always keep an accurate count of exposures. The Model III has mirror lock up and I miss it on my Model II. This camera comes with a Schneider 80mm that is sharp. I also use three Kiev lenses, a 250, a 150mm and a 45mm. They are not well constructed, but give great B & W images. Color is a little unsaturated for my taste. I end up using a Mamiya Universal in 6 x 7 much more than the Exacta. Would I buy another? Probably not, and I had the same problems you have had with the Hasselblad.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: Wed Jun 24 21:54:07 CDT 1998

  [email protected] (Robbie57) wrote:
>
> I've seen a few,and own one.It's a basic easy to use manual camera.The backs
> don't change.No multiple exposure.120 film only,no 220.The metered prism is
> ttl,but not coupled .The one I have was made in 1994.I have had no problem with
> it.BUT........I would not subject it to the uses and abuses of a pro.I have
> heard horror stories about the Kiev 60,but I like mine.You can find reasonably
> priced good lenses on the used market too.
> 

Have you? I've seen a lot of horror stories about the 88, but the 60 seems to be pretty robust. Perhaps we're talking about different cameras? The 6c, I beleive, is an earlier camera. It had some problems with the film advance mechanism where it measured the film that was transported. This was deleted in the later 60, which just winds film. With a 60, you end up with uneven frame spacing because the wind just winds a certain number of turns in the take up spool, and the distance changes between the beginning of the roll, and the end because of the amount of film on the spool.

In short, I've heard of problems with the 6c and the 88, but the 60 is pretty good, if you can accept uneven frame spacing.

I just checked the Kiev web site, and man, did I get sticker shock! These cameras sure have gone up in price in the two years since I was considering them. I think the prices have nearly doubled! The Kiev 60 just went from "I think I might try one some day" to "No way."

- Arved

From: [email protected] (GLewis4457)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: 25 Jun 1998

I have a 6C (actually an "S" in Russian) with a Vega-12b 90mm lens. Nice lens! Very sharp with little flare. I really like the camera, except it could double as a boat anchor. Mine can be set for either 12 or 24 exposures using the black knob just to the right of the viewfinder. I have had no problem with the film advance. The biggest hastle I have is the front mounted shutter release.

I have wasted more film inadvertantly releasing the shutter..it is quite sensative. I do try to not advance the film until I am ready to compose and shoot again but I still sometimes trip the shutter, and as you know you must advance the shutter to return the mirror. I usually use my Weston hand meter as the TTL meter is funky at best. On the whole, I find it quite a useable camera. I did buy one of the old Zeiss Ikon 6x6 folders to carry around because this puppy is too much for casual shooting...for me anyway.

Jerry in Houston

Jerry Lewis
League City, TX., USA

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Subject: Re: You are being fooled...
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998

Ed and I were talking about Russian lenses.

Kiev lenses are Ukrainian, not Russian.

Flare problems with older Kiev MF bodies are well known. I use my Kiev lenses on my Mamiya 645 Pro with an adapter and have NO flare problems. Same lenses on my old Kiev 88, mucho flare. Same lenses on late Kiev 88 with internal flocking, much less flare. The lenses are not at fault.

Bob

[email protected] wrote:

>
> ed romney wrote:
> >
> >    Oh yes..here is  more Shutterbug disinformation exposed:  A recent
> > article warned of high flare in Russian lenses.
>
> I believe there is no particular flare problem with Russian lenses, at
> least the ones I use; The flare problem is caused by reflections from
> internal body parts in a lot of cases. I had to line the inside of my
> Kiev 88 with black cloth, and that mostly eliminated the flare problem I
> had. Oddly enough, taking a picture directly toward the sun didn't
> produce as much flare as that produced from off-axis bright objects.
> Maybe you can suggest a simple way to fix the problem -- my way is kind
> of a kludge, and Kiev-USA's way is quite expensive. The scary part for
> me was that I'm afraid to muck around with any part that looks like it's 
> supposed to move. Consequently, I think there are still some surfaces
> that reflect under rare conditions -- maybe once every 3 or 4 rolls I'll
> get a couple of negatives with a thin dark straight line in them, that
> print like jet airplane contrails? Strange behavior, but I hope I'll
> track it down sooner or later. Il legitium non carborundum.
>
>                                        Bill Martin
>

From: Roman Rohleder [email protected]
Subject: Response to Kiev 4.5/55mm & 3.5/65mm shift lenses
Date: 1998-07-07

yesterday my 4,5/55 Arsat Shift was delivered. (Serial Number 9800001)

My first impression : it's an nice toy.

Until now, I haven't had a chance of using at "work". I did some test shots, and it performed quite well. I'll stay in contact with MFD until I get the first results.

But now i can confirm the existence of the lens!

MFD:
From: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
Subject: Response to Hassy Bellows on Kiev 88
Date: 1998-07-03

Greetings ;-) - You would seem to have two obvious options.

The easiest is to get a machinist to make a simple adapter to go from the Kiev lens mount to the desired bellows mount - hasselblad 1000f here.

Lacking a machinist, you could cheat, as I do, by mating a Kiev rear lens cap to a body cap (for bellows or body) with epoxy and drill out the center, producing a simple adapter at low cost. See my page on homebrew medium format lenses for more details at http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronhb.html.

The bad news is that using a bellows and/or adapter will mount the lens beyond infinity focusing distance - so you can't focus at infinity. Both the Kiev-88 and Hasselblad 1000f/1600f have about the same lens registration distance (circa 82mm as I recall).

Another approach I have seen hassy owners use is to get a local machinist to re-thread the Kiev lenses to exactly match the Hasselblad 1000f/1600f thread mount. This retains infinity focus etc., but you lose use of these modified lenses on your old Kiev mount cameras.

I can provide a reference to someone who will remount Kiev88 lenses into hasselblad mounts, not only the older 1000f and 1600f but the more recent 500c/m series mounts etc via my site at: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/hassy.html top article/posting. As an example, he is offering Hasselblad 500c/m mount Kiev88 fisheye 30mm f3.5 180deg. lenses in Hasselblad mount for $900US etc.

Also, some recent reviews have pointed out that the Kiev lenses, which are often maligned for lens flare, are usually not the culprit, rather, it is the lack of light absorbing flocking in the bodies etc. For more info on this, see last post on http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/kiev88.html

In short, the Kiev lenses are interesting, low cost, med fmt optics..

From: [email protected] (CharlesW99)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: 26 Jun 1998

The Kiev 6 C is an early version of the Kiev 60. It features a LEFT hand shutter release. One recurring story is that it was designed this way as a concession to Cosmonauts who, with their heavy gloves, had difficulty using the right handed wind and right handed release (doesn't make much sense to me, but evidently the Kiev 6C was indeed used in the Russian space missions).

The back is not interchangable, but the 6C WILL take 220 film (which the present version does not). Since there is no rewind provision and the wind advances the film as well as cocking the shutter, you cannot make double exposures.

Recently, Keppler in Popular Photography (June?) evaluated the current Kiev 60 80/2.8 lenses which were a bit soft wide open and only sharp at about f8. The 90/2.8 that I have is very sharp, as good if not better than the Rolleiflex 3.5 Planar that I have.

The only problem withe the 6C is the age, I think these were discontinued around 1980. Mine has a new shutter so should last another 20 years or so....

Charlie

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: [email protected]
Re: You are being fooled...
Date: Fri Jun 26 06:39:15 CDT 1998

Well, Jim, I'd rather talk photography, too. This other bullshit is depressing and silly.

You are right that sweeping generalizations should be avoided in photography, as in most of life.

I understand that Pop Photography recently tested some of the Kiev lenses for the Kiev MF cameras and said they weren't very good. Am I going to throw out my Kiev cameras and lenses because the grand high gods of photography say the lenses aren't very good? Hardly!!!

First of all, my Kiev lenses take sharp and contrasty images. I'm happy with the image quality. Also, I have seen tests of Kiev lenses done by one of the major Japanese camera companies, and to quote their test technician, the lenses were "frighteningly good". Translation: if these guys ever got their act together on QC and marketing, they would be really serious competition!

Do I automatically assume that Pop Photo is full of crap? No, because I know these guys and know they make every effort to be objective.

So I have to conclude that the samples they got came from the bottom of the curve, while mine and the ones tested in Japan came from the top. Ukrainian lenses, just like Russian ones, suffer from highly variable quality and lack of quality control.

The trick with this stuff is to buy with the right to return. When I wanted a 30 mm fisheye I tried three. Two were good, one was spectacular.

Bob

From: [email protected] (Mr 645)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev lenses on hasselblad
Date: 19 Jul 1998

I actually own a Kiev 60, I bought it so I could geta 6x6 fisheye lens cheap. Considering the total investment of $490 for a Kiev 60 body, Prism with totally inaccurate meter, 80mm lens, 30mm fish-eye and a few filter/case it's not bad. As long as you stay away from wider f-stops he shots are sharp, on par with Hassy or Mamiya lenses. I recent test in one of the mags showed that at f8 or f11 the Kiev 80mm lens was virtually as sharp as the T* Zeiss.

One problem with the Russian optics is a lack of flare control. Fortunately the 30mm is not nearly as bad as the 80mm which flares badly under difficult conditions.

I would say that the Kiev 60 is one of the best values in MF photography.

Jon
http://www.interpoint.net/~mr645

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Mitch Kief" [email protected]
[1] Re: kiev lenses on hasselblad
Date: Mon Jul 20 15:58:04 CDT 1998

Was fooling around with my Kiev60 last night and finally figured out how to calibrate the meter:

This involved a grey card and another "trusted" calibrated light meter. There are three rings: an inner for ASA, middle for F stop and outer for speed. The outer ring matches up the LEDs. Thus, I rotated the outer ring till both LEDs lit up. I took a light reading with the trusted meter, then on the Kiev, I rotated the middle ring till the speed and F stop matched the setting based on the reading from the trusted meter. All I ask for now is consistency from the Kiev 60 meter. But you know, I think I'll still keep a hand meter when I lug the Kiev 60 around.The Kiev 60 also has an easy to use set screw by the lens holder opening that can adjust the diaphragm opening on the lens.

The 80mm Volna, Velna, whatever, that came with the camera is sharp enough based on an informal comparison using 8X10 enlargements against the same scenes taken by my Leica with a 50mm DR Summicron (I know, apples vs. oranges etc, but sorry, I don't have a Hassy, or Pentax 6x7, it's either a 35mm camera or a Kodak Brownie for a comparison shot). Best sharpness at f8 - f11 and the lens can have very good contrast (using the provided lens shade and thoughtful shooting, watch out for the sun). Took shots with Leica and Kiev hand held and braced on top of a wall (no tripod, hey I can only carry so much junk). Only shot TriX, so I don't know about chromes.

I was at a dock doing the test, and a few Russian merchant sailors were amazed and amused that I was using something they recognized from home. It seems they like taking back Japanese zoom P&S cameras as gifts for the loved ones.

Bought the Kiev 60 kit (case, prism, filters) in like new condition for about $225 (the price of a Japanese zoom P&S) a couple years ago at a photo swap. The seller had, as he put it, "moved up" to a Pentax 6x7. My pet peeves about the Kiev60: The poor fit of the simulated leather on the body; the strange meter (I hope I've solved that problem); and the negative images that can jam next to each other on a roll. Understand the Kiev60 can take a host of Zeiss Jena and Schneider lens designed for the Pentacon; if I ever buy one I'll let you all know the pictures turned out.

Later!
Mitch

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Lenses ?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98

>>I have been surprised at how sharp the Kiev lenses can be.  I have a 66  with
>>the Arsat 80mm lens and in the middle F-stops it is very sharp.  On par  with
>
>
>I have to agree with Jon.   The Kiev lenses are very sharp.   I own a
>Kiev 88 which is a copy of a Hasselblad.  If I remember correctly, the
>lens was manufactured in the old East Germany.   The shutter is
>accurate and is located in the camera body.  The problems I have
>encountered are flare and occasional improper spacing between frames
>on the film.    The Kiev is an excellent medium format starter camera.

My Kiev 45mm lens is a very nice performer....including color rendition. I have had 2 pro photographers ask if i had used a polarizer (I hadn't) on 2 enlargments that had dramatic, intense "sky-blue" skies. One of the sho was done side-by-side with a Schneider 47mm super=Angulon that was polarized (and it caused th sky to go to a an unpleasant dark blue and showd the uneveness inherent in skies rendered by wide-angle lenses that are polarizd). PRN used on all shots.

Magnified negs showed slightly less contrast than the Schneider and a hair less resolution.

From: [email protected] (H.Gunnarsson)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: EXAKTA 66
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998

[email protected] says...

> It's my understanding that the lenses for the exakta66 are the same as the
> schneiders used by Rollei for the 6000 series cameras.  iI this is true  is it
> possible to get MTF charts for the 150mm f4 tele-xenar and 60mm curtagon? Who
> would have these charts?  Does exakta have a web site?
> thanks

I've got MTF-tests of these lenses published in a Swedish photomagazine. The values of 10, 20 and 40 cycl./mm are put together into a single curve according to the following figures: 10cycl.mm: 57%; 20cycl.mm: 29%; 40cycl.mm: 14%. When the values of the Distagon 60/3,5 are weighted in the same manner it proves that the Distagon is vastly better than the Curtagon/Exakta; this and the fact that the Schneider Tele-Xenar 150/4 for Rollei (the results at 10, 20, 40 cycles/mm are weighted in the same manner) is vastly superior to the same Tele-Xenar for Exakta make me suspect that the Exakta Schneider's and the Rollei Schneider's aren't exactly the same designs although they share the same name; I don't know otherwise how to explain the great discrepancy.

--
Hekan Gunnarsson
Gvteborg/Gothenburg, Sweden

h dot gunnarsson at ebox dot tninet dot se

From: Ace [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998

Nathan Dayton wrote:

> It only exists in German and has been out of print since the fall of  the DDR.
> That said here may be everything that you want to know.
>
>  It is important to note the most common problems with all of these  cameras.
> Although these problems were supposed to have been corrected in the later
> cameras I would still advise caution. First never, I repeat never,  allow the
> film advance lever to snap back after winding the film. This has been the
> cause of breaking more of these cameras than every other problem combined.
> Also never release the self-timer when the camera is not cocked, again a
> common way to break the camera. The third problem is improper frame  spacing.
> This has two causes one is a broken film advance and the more common is
> improper film loading. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock
> position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> filmguide. This by the way is the only time that you use more multiple strokes         
> to advance the film. This sets proper tension on the film, turning the  spool
> with your finger does not and will result in frame overlap.
>
> Nathan Dayton

Hey Nathan

Great advice. I just printed out your notes. I would bet that this stuff would apply to the Kiev 60, as well.

Ace

From: "Michael Liczbanski" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998

>. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock
> position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> filmguide.

Respectfully, I disagree with the above statement, especially for older Practi Six, Pentacon Six and Pentacon Six TL: Never use the film advance lever to load the film. Attach the end of film smoothly and evenly to the take-up spool, and use your finger to turn the take-up spool and wind the film until the arrows are aligned. Thus the advice would be never to touch the film winding lever when the back is open. Also, after 12 (or 13 on some specimens) frames, release the rewind block (located on the side of the rewind lever) and use even, gently strokes to wind the film. If the above sounds stupid, well, it is stupid, but necessary. These cameras had a very poorly executed film winding mechanism.

Also, instruction books do exist in German, English, Polish, Russian and probably more Eastern-European languages. These IBs were either printed in E. Germany, or translated by the importer of these cameras (such as in UK.) The "usual" US source of IBs in CT may be a good start.

Michael (Former owner of many a Pentacon Six )

From: Nathan Dayton [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998

It only exists in German and has been out of print since the fall of the DDR. That said here may be everything that you want to know.

It is important to note the most common problems with all of these cameras. Although these problems were supposed to have been corrected in the later cameras I would still advise caution. First never, I repeat never, allow the film advance lever to snap back after winding the film. This has been the cause of breaking more of these cameras than every other problem combined. Also never release the self-timer when the camera is not cocked, again a common way to break the camera. The third problem is improper frame spacing. This has two causes one is a broken film advance and the more common is improper film loading. The proper way to load the film is to use the film advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the filmguide. This by the way is the only time that you use more multiple strokes to advance the film. This sets proper tension on the film, turning the spool with your finger does not and will result in frame overlap.

Nathan Dayton

From: Nathan Dayton [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998

Well I would never argue that you couldn't load the camera that way. The instructions that I gave are straight out of the manual that was printed in the DDR. I was also told by the repairmeister for Pentacon in Berlin to use this procedure. This was after he had fixed one of my pentacons. He also said never to use the procedure that you suggest. I am a great believer in doing what works, so if the method works use it.

I have 2 Praktisixes and 4 Pentacon Sixes and thet is the method that I use.

Yes there was an instruction manual printed in many languages, but it too is out of print. I can only speak for the English and French versions and say that they are interesting translations of the origonal German.

But if no one agrees with me that's ok if I keep them from letting the wind lever from snapping back.

Nathan Dayton

Michael Liczbanski wrote:

> >. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> > advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the  lock
> > position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> > filmguide.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with the above statement, especially for older 
> Practi Six, Pentacon Six and Pentacon Six TL:  Never use the film advance
> lever to load the film.  Attach the end of film smoothly and evenly to the
> take-up spool, and use your finger to turn the take-up spool and wind the
> film until the arrows are aligned.  Thus the advice would be never to touch
> the film winding lever when the back is open.  Also, after 12 (or 13 on  some
> specimens) frames, release the rewind block (located on the side of the
> rewind lever) and use even, gently strokes to wind the film.
> If the above sounds stupid, well, it is stupid, but necessary.  These
> cameras had a very poorly executed film winding mechanism.
>
> Also, instruction books do exist in German, English, Polish, Russian and
> probably more Eastern-European languages.  These IBs were either  printed in
> E. Germany, or translated by the importer of these cameras (such as in UK.)
> The "usual" US source of IBs in CT may be a good start.
>
> Michael (Former owner of many a Pentacon Six ) 

From: [email protected] (Rich Satterlee)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: 21 Dec 1998

The tread is getting long here (sorry), but I do agree with Nathan. My old and coffee stained english copy of the pentacon 6 manual does state this. I don't have the manual immediately available (due to shifting stuff around for Xmas), but if the original poster can't find one before hand, he can e-mail me and I can xerox sometime in January. Nathan is also VERY correct about the advance of the film as well. The wind advance is not like what you are used to with a standard 35mm. Treat it with care and it will last for many rolls of film. Can't answer for the Kiev 60. BTW, the Hanimex Practica 66 is the eastern version of the camera.

Cheers,

Rich S.

From: "Michael Liczbanski" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998

Not to argue needlessly, but I had only a very slight film advance problem on my P-Six TL (4 bodies ca. 1972, 1975,1978,1979 vintage) when using the "finger-on-the-spool" film loading method, vs. numerous film advance problems with 2 bodies (ca 1975 and 77 vintage) when using the film winding lever to advance the film to the arrows. Just my 2 cents and a long experience. Your mileage may vary. The official Commie position on the advance issue was a tad misleading in my view ;-)

As an aside, Pentacon Six is a *really* lousy camera comparing even to the most beat up Hassy or Bronica. I had to use it (there wasn't much choice in E. Europe then) but would never consider it again for any work other than driving nails into walls. And I have no idea how Pop Photo come up with such stellar lens test results. At best, I could get half of what they are claiming with Zeiss (Jena) Biometar 80/2.8 and 120/2.8. OTOH the 50mm Flektogon was OK (huge light fall-off though) and the 180/2.8 Sonnar (Jena) was really good at certain f-stops and distances. Again, it is my opinion.

Michael

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Sheldon Hambrick [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev
Date: Tue Feb 23 13:50:57 CST 1999

I've owned two:

1. The first had a bad shutter right out of the box.

2. The second worked fine but,
    - ruined many negatives due to shiny inner surfaces, and internal
body reflections (You can fix this by painting the inside flat black.
Some people on the net have done this.  Do a search).
    - had irregular frame spacing, but never overlapped
    - no mirror lock-up

3. I had the 45mm and 80mm lenses which performed well.

I would not buy it again as my sole MF camera. If you're looking for a bargain, go with a TLR (Mamiya, Yashica).

If I were to buy it again, it would only be so that I could use the 30mm fisheye. Where else are you going to get a MF fisheye for $300 - $500?!?!?!

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev
Date: Wed Feb 24 11:45:11 CST 1999

> MelM2 wrote:
>
> > at the risk of starting something that has been beat to death,
> > I'd like to know of some experiences with the Kiev 60.  Thanks.
> > Melver C. Minton III  PM, 32
> > Apex Lodge No. 584 AF&AM
> > York Rite,  Scottish Rite

Sheldon--

MelM2 was talking about the KIEV 60 not the 88, so just want you to know that the interior in KIEV 60 is black, so there is no interior reflections as the KIEV 88. My experiences with 60 is pretty positive, it's a nice camera, it accepts the Pentacon and Exacta (Schneider) lenses. And the kiev lenses can produce very sharp and contrasty images. However, due to the poor workmanship, it will be much better to buy the tested kiev 60 outfit than untested(someone brought directly from Ukrane...), KIEV USA is an excellent place to buy since all the cameras were checked down there. KIEV 60 is an excellent camera in the field, the place if you don't want to bring your studio cameras (mamiya or hasselblad...), and it gives you 35mm feels.

Good luck.

WEI

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Sheldon Hambrick [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev
Date: Wed Feb 24 14:04:01 CST 1999

Hello.

>MelM2 was talking about the KIEV 60

>so just want you to know that the interior in KIEV 60 is black

Yes, GLOSSY black is some places.

> so there is no interior reflections as the KIEV 88.

Yes there are. I have the ruined negatives to prove it. This is a problem with both cameras, more so with the 88.

Sheldon

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Andre Calciu [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev
Date: Wed Feb 24 20:14:38 CST 1999

you are all using outdated information.

i just got one from kiev, ukraine and it has flat black paint inside, there are no shiny surfaces anywhere and everything works 100% including the mirror lock-up.

andre

[Ed. note: see related posts in Pentacon 6 Pages]
rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Pentacon six
Date: Mon Mar 15 21:53:56 CST 1999

"Spencer Childs" [email protected] writes:

>I have heard that the old "overlapping frame" problem can be fixed on the
>Pentacon Six if I learn how to load it properly - can anybody tell me the
>secret?

All that I can do is advise a semi-fix for a similar camera.... the Kiev 60. My Kiev 60 has frame spacing that results in frames that "kiss" but do not overlap when used with Kodak take-uo spools. Simply switching to the newer Fuji spools with the inverted "T" in the film slot for take-up results in real frame "spaces". I suspect that Eastern European films that these cameras were designed for had a thicker film base which makes the designed gear ratio a mismatch for Western film substrates....but I could be wrong. why do the Fuji spools work better? I suspect that tyhe "grab" of the inverted "T" pulls the film more tautly across the film gate so that it does not slip back causing the frame edges to be double exposed. *If this is correct* It implies using Fuji spools will increase film flatness and as a result resolution figures should jump upwards for any given lens. Anyone care to test this theory? I suggested this test to Popular Photography and the "editor" (Keppler ???) was not interested and apparently did not pass it along to Jason Schneider who I would have thought it interesting to be able to "turbo-charge" the non-coated or single-coated lens on ancient MF cameras simply due to the take-up spool. BTW, Fuji offered this technology (pretty low and low-cost) free of charge to Eastman Kodak, et al. Apparently no one was interested in a better mousetrap.

Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice & fax)
[email protected]

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (Peter Mikalajunas)
[1] Re: Kiev 60 vs. Kiev 88, any pref ???
Date: Wed Mar 17 00:44:18 CST 1999

On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:05:22 GMT, [email protected] (Ken) wrote:

For a good set of links with info / opinions try:

http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/cameras.html

The usual complaint about the Kiev 60 is that the meter is off. The Kiev 80 and Kiev 88 have numerous mechanical complaints.

As far as the meter on the Kiev 60 goes, it is not coupled. If you are aware that it is off by say 2 stops, try a fresh set of batteries first. If that doesn't work, simply adjust the ASA. Personally, I don't use the meter even though on mine it is accurate.

There are several klunky things about the Kiev 60.

Except for the very latest, read over priced models, there is no mirror lock-up.

There is no double-exposure ability (something I never use any way).

Firing the shutter leaves the mirror in the up position, you have to advance the film to drop the mirror.

There is no rewind ability.

It only synchs at 1/30th.

It looks like a 35mm on steriods having a bad hair day.

On the up side.

It has been reliable for me.

From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 vs. Kiev 88, any pref ???
Date: 25 Mar 1999

from: [email protected] (Sasm Sherman)

Re- the Kiev 60. (3-24-99)

This is a well made high tech camera originally made for the Soviet space program. It has a wind mechanism of strong steel gears and should last a long time if properly cared for.

The Ukrainian cameras are sometimes not well lubricated. Get a camera which works smootly and it should last you a long time. The lenses are good and the camers works like a big 35. It is a favorite of mine. Re- flare, lubrication and other minor problems any good repairman can set that straight. I have not had those problems.

The Kiev 88 is a horse of another color and is capable of good quality. Get one that works smoothly and get a guarantee to return if if not okay. I would suggest the 60 over the 80 and it is easier to use.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: KLIN [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev 60 Problem (Surprise,Surprise)
Date: Thu Apr 22 06:25:07 CDT 1999

Russell Hippert wrote:

> > KLIN wrote:
> > >
> > > I bought a kiev 60 for nothing the other day and I like it alot except
> > > for one small problem. All the frames on the negative "kiss". They
> > > overlap by just the tiniest margin. I understand that this is a common
> > > problem with these cameras (due to thickness differences in East/West
> > > films),but is there any thing I can do to fix it. I have shot tri-x,
> > > plus-x, and tech pan in it with the same results. I have heard that
> > > Ilford films like HP5 were thicker. Is this true? Is there any  other way
> > > I could fix this? I do like the camera/lens. Thanks in advance for any
> > > help.
>
> I own a 60 and an 88 and found frame "kissing" is less of a problem  when using
> Fuji film w/ a Fuji spool for the take up spool.You may want to try  that and
> see what happens.
>
> Russ

I found that wrapping some masking tape around the take up spool solved the problem completely. You just have to experiment and find the correct thickness. I guess all those guys who said I couldn't solve the problem without resorting to expensive repairs had no idea what they were talking about.

[Ed. note: see lens variations page
rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Russell Hippert [email protected]
[1] Re: kiev 60 lens on mamiya 645
Date: Thu Apr 22 18:56:01 CDT 1999

Brad The Dog wrote:

> I am thinking about buying an adapter for a maiya 645 to use kiev 60 lens
> can anyone tell me quality of the kiev lenses?  Or should i just wait and
> buy a mamiya lens when i got the money?

Like most lenses, you get good ones and bad ones due to different production runs of the same lens.Kiev lens are really bad in this respect, you may get a really soft one while someone else will get one that's tack sharp.There is usually no middle ground like most other lenses.For example ,I have two 80mm Arsat B's ,one's sharper than my Rollieflex Tessar 3.5 but my backup lens is so soft that I use it as a soft focus portrait lens.Unless you can get some sort of exchange guarantee save your money and get the Mamiya.

Russ

[Ed. note: for info purposes only, be sure you know what you are doing if you attempt camera repairs, many such repairs go astray! caveat reader!]
rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev 88 Meter Prism Repair
Date: Sun May 09 11:34:07 CDT 1999

I have not tried the Kiev 88 or it's meter, but I have aligned the Kiev 60 TTL meter, and for what it's worth, here are my comments:

This is a very simple device to align--that complicated-looking dial is mostly a mechanical calculator, and it's orientation on the shaft seems to be what determines alignment, much as re-installing knobs into a hifi set, in which you want to take some pains to see to it that the pointer actually points to the "O" markings when the volume's all the way down. Sorry, that's the best analogy I could think of at the time. To align, turn the shaft 'till it indicates proper exposure, then reposition the knob so that it indicates the camera settings that you know you should be getting. Verify for differing film speed and lighting conditions, and if you can get below maybe 1 stop accuracy throughout, that's probably good. Be warned that the factory did sometimes use different viewscreens with differing brightness, and your meter alignment must take this into account. You can easily check this by inspecting the viewscreen through your Soligor spotmeter. The tolerances in the lens iris assembly also tends to be kind of iffy, and you may want to conduct your experiments using the same lens. In some cases, I found that a 1/2 stop change in iris setting scarcely moved the iris blades at all.

Hope this helps
Jeff

From: Andre Calciu [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 quality
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999

actually film flatness in kiev 60 is much better than in many other cameras. the secret is their oversized pressure plate. why have others not thought about it? as to the overlapping negs: use fuji film with the new fuji take-up spools and you will never have that problem again.

andre

Mark Bergman wrote:

> Besides lenses and shutter accuracy a few other things fall in my  importance
> list:
> film flatness, non-overlapping negatives, no light leaks, film plane
> parrallel to lens mount, internal flare, reliability just to name a few.
> Unfortunately the Kiev cameras lack this compared some other MF cameras.
> There is a reason they sell so cheap.
>
> [email protected] wrote in message
> >On another hand Kiev 60, true it is not a
> >perfect camera, does not has as smooth body as those Japanese or Swedish
> >cameras, but the most important part of the camera is not how their bodies
> >look like, it's the lens and the accuracy of the shutter.

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Problem (Surprise,Surprise)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99

KLIN [email protected] writes:

>I bought a kiev 60 for nothing the other day and I like it alot except
>for one small problem. All the frames on the negative "kiss". They
>overlap by just the tiniest margin. I understand that this is a common
>problem with these cameras (due to thickness differences in East/West
>films),but is there any thing I can do to fix it. I have shot tri-x,
>plus-x, and tech pan in it with the same results. I have heard that
>Ilford films like HP5 were thicker. Is this true? Is there any other way
>I could fix this? I do like the camera/lens. Thanks in advance for any
>help.

I own a 1992 Kiev 60 and have the same problem and believe the cause is exactly as you describe. The problem is apparent with every roll of film (western) that I have shot that used a Kodak spool for film take-up.

I have resolved the problem by using "new" Fuji spools containg the inverted "T" in the film take-up "slit" (fuji films have a hole punched in the leader to catch the "T".....and it really does with a good bite).

This works even with Kodak film lacking the puched hole (or you could use a hole punch) in the leader.

The extra "grab" increase film tension that "pulls" the frames enough to give actual frame separation.

*AND*

I would postulate, but have not tested, the theory that this "pulling" of the film should give better edge to edge flatness in the film frame and theoretically better edge to edge sharpness with the Kiev as well as other cameras.

I made this observation by e-mail to the "editors" of Popular Photography, but since this is a low tech (read no adverttising dollars) possible benefit to readers, there was no interest in following up on it. BTW, Fuji has offered this technology at no charge to other film makers per one Fuji rep that I spoke with.

From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.film+labs
Subject: Am I the only one who finds Fuji "new-style) 120 spools aid sharpness/mechanical tracking in Medium Format cameras?
Date: Wed, 19 May 99

I have a Kiev 60 SLR (120-size) that was plagued by the improper framing (in my case frame "kiss", others have frame overlap) gremlin. The only cure so far has been using Fuji spools with the new "trapped 'T'" in the take-up slot. It doesn't matter much if the film being fed is without a hole punched in the leader (although it's easy to add one) or if it is Fuji film with the hole.... the results are the same...improved spacing due to added film tension (?).

This also begs the question: shouldn't improved tension create better flatness in the film channel and subsequently better sharpness? Does anyone else have similar experiences or tests?

Wayne

[email protected]

From: Andre Calciu [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev adapter?
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999

yes to both questions. advertised in shutterbug for 199 bucks by cambridge camera.

Epa0962 wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I was wondering if there is an adapter to mount Kiev 88 lenses on a  Kiev 60
> body.  Of so, is it autodiaphragm?
>
> EPA

From: omegaman [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Problem (Surprise,Surprise)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999

KLIN wrote:

> I bought a kiev 60 for nothing the other day and I like it alot except
> for one small problem. All the frames on the negative "kiss". They
> overlap by just the tiniest margin. I understand that this is a common
> problem with these cameras (due to thickness differences in East/West
> films),but is there any thing I can do to fix it. I have shot tri-x,
> plus-x, and tech pan in it with the same results. I have heard that
> Ilford films like HP5 were thicker. Is this true? Is there any other way
> I could fix this? I do like the camera/lens. Thanks in advance for any
> help.
>
> regards,
>
> Lindsey

Linsey:

When you load your next roll advance the arrow on the film backing paper about 1/2 inch past the red dot. That sometimes takes care of the problem.

RC

From: [email protected] (Mr 645)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Panoramic 35mm adapter for Kiev's(serious)
Date: 2 Jun 1999

I did this already with my Kiev 60.

Here's what I did.

Take some wooden dowel and cut it so you have a piece below and above the 35mm canister. Center the roll of film. Then you will be using the marks that are on the stock focusing screen which will getyou pretty close as far as what you see will be on the film. I then thread the 35mm film to the 120 take up spool. Close the back. Fire away. When you get to the end you must take the camera into the dark room and manually rewind the 35mm film back into the canister. You should get about 17 shots per 36 exp roll this way.

Jon

From: "Robert Landrigan" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: In Defense of Kiev's:)
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999

Okay, i'm not selling a kiev, nor will i ever, so blame me for trying to be a salesman:)

Having just recieved my Keiv-60 today, I realize that i am not an experienced shooter with the camera--however, after running a roll of Ilford delta 3200 through it, i can say that i am very happy with my purchase. For under 200 bux on ebay, i have a fully finctional, if clunky camera that allows me to get into more 120mm without having spent a prohibitive amount. Hell, there are p&s that i want that cost more!:)

The trick with the Kievs is to know what yer getting--the meter, for instance, is NC...non-coupled or iNcredibly Clumsy...I never thought that it would be good for mych, and i've been shooting 3200 for so long i've gotten what i hope is a good "feel" for exposure...having said that, the meter wasn't that off...if it's all you got, it's certainly good for b/w work, but slides...well, if you're shooting slides, you're likely to have a seperate meter when you move to 120. As for hand-holding, it did well at 125 and up, which is fine--i do a good deal of portraiture with jerry-rigged constant lighting, and my test shoots looked great. I never planned to use a flash with the beast due to it's 1/30th synch speed. Fine. I hate flash, unless it's on my EOS, or better yet, a Nikon F5:)

The negs looked great, technicaly, i was using 3200 to check for any light leaks or other light related problems, but it all checked out fine. It isn't a hassleblad, or a Pentax 67. But ya know what? it's cheeeeeeeep:)

Very appealing, and a great way to get into something new.

All this said, i would'net get a Kiev 88, ever. If i wanted a hassy i'd just save forever and get one...the 60 is somewhat unique in what it does and thus is worth the risk factor of getting a lemon.

Anyone with any questions on the 60, please feel free to contact me--i'm already becoming a big fan of the camera.

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999
From: David L. Hanon [email protected]
Subject: [BRONICA] Bellows and Kiev 60 lenses

I am interested in doing some close up work with my Bronica and I have done some with 35mm and Kiev 60.� Where are good deals on bellows to be found and what should I avoid/look for?

(Boy did I ever get some bad news on that Kiev 60.� Seems like the factory glues them together and "new" ones like the one I bought have been sitting in warehouses for who know how long and under what conditions(?)� Repair shop says that the cost of repair will be $280+� because they have to break it open and clean the ancient, dried grease out and replace some parts -� that's approximately $100 more than I paid for the camera - including lens, filters and Etc.� "Sooo?" You Say?� Well,� I have two very nice lenses with no camera to put them on.� Unless someone threatens me with a gun I will not buy another Kiev 60.� At this point I would rather eat a piece of soap.� Does anyone know of a place to get adapters so that I can use the lenses on a Bronica S2A?)

Thanks to all of you who warmly welcomed me to the list with your responses.� Terry, looks to me like you got a Hellova deal on your camera.

Dave.

From: [email protected] (Steve)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: batteries Kiev 60
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999

>What kind of batteries should I use in the prism viewfinder of the
>Kiev-60 ?
>Alexander

I use L44 batteries, sold on the ebay auction for about 10 cents each. They are usually used for the little pocket lasers. The Kiev 60 Prism meter has a voltage regulater, so the cheap alkalines are just fine.

Steve

From: "Spud Monkey" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: KIEV 60 - GOST to ASA/ISO Conversion
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999

>How do I convert? Or is the listing correct with ISO speeds?

Well, I don't read Polish but I found this in the pl.rec.foto (while searching dejanews for GOST):

===
DIN/ASA/GOST 
10/8/8
11/10/8
12/12/11
13/16/16
14/20/16
15/25/22
16/32/32
17/40/32
18/50/45
19/64/65
20/80/65
21/100/90
22/125/130
23/160/130
24/200/180
25/250/250
26/320/250
27/400/360
28/500/500 
29/650/500
30/800/700
33/1600/1400
===

Sound correct? So, if I follow the on-board dial and match it to the film I am actually doing a slight push, which won't really hurt.

Still open to suggestions if this does not look correct.

Rick

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999

> From what you describe, light leaking past the edges of the shutter
> curtains, due to them not overlapping correctly, is the only explanation
> that makes sense. This can only happen, as far as I know, while the
> shutter is being cocked, and the supposedly closed slit is moving across
> the film.

This is eaxctly what happens and the problem is quite common, especially on late production models.

This can be cured by changing the position at which the shutter curtains are fastened to their respective shafts. Fortunately, there is enough 'spare' curtain material on the shaft. Needless to say that this work has to be done by a technician who is familiar with this camera.

The few 'decent' German dealers know about this and only sell cameras which have been checked and re-worked, if necessary.

Cheers,
Ralf

Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG
Koeln/Cologne, Germany

From: "Prophoto" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cambron? Kiev?
Date: 20 Aug 1999

Rick

The best bet for a student would be a Kiev 60. You can buy them online for about $160 with the prism and lens. You'll find this camera to actually be quite robust, and should be more reliable than an old used TLR like a beat up yashica. Lens quality isn't bad, probably about on par with an old chrome Hasselblad lens, but not really in the same league as the newer lenses from any of the major manufacturers.

If you get a Kiev 60- get some black flocking from a camera repair shop and flock the inside of the mirror chamber- this is the cause of the flare experienced by most Kiev owners- not the lens itself.

Jay

....

From: "Eugene Chen" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cambron? Kiev?
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999

I suggest you find a place that allows you to return the camera and DO check all shutter speeds and flash terminal before the warranty expires. I have owned Mamiya M645, Kiev 60, 645, and 88 and found the Kiev 645 to be my favorite. Yes you can go with other name brand used model but additional lenses will add up a lot $$. BTW, mirror lockup for this camera does make significant differences in image sharpness. Unless you only shoot with strobe, if you can afford a MLU model, go for it.

I own 4 lenses, 30mm(Kiev), 50mm(Zeiss), 80mm(Kiev), 120mm(Zeiss), 180mm(Zeiss). The whole setup costs me about US$1200. Try to match that with any other SLR MF system!

Eugene

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
[1] Re: Kiev lens on Pentax 645
Date: Mon Nov 01 21:26:16 CST 1999

> Is there an adapter to put Kiev 30mm lens on Pentax 645? I assume it
> only works manually, but what is the quality like, and approximate cost?
>
> Tim in Mpls
>
> Hi Tim,

I have been told that Zorkendorfer in Germany makes an adapter for Kiev 60 lenses ( NOT Kiev 88 lenses) to Pentax 645. Cost: supposedly $300. I haven't checked this out.

Regards,
Kevin

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
[1] Re: Lenses for the Kiev 60TTL
Date: Tue Nov 02 00:52:07 CST 1999

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 11-2-99

The K60 and Pentacon 6/Exakta 66 mounts are not precisely the same. Many, but not all, lenses and extension tubes will work on both.

The good Kiev lenses for the K60 include -
30MM, 65MM, 80MM, 120MM. 150MM, 250MM f3.5

There is quite a selection you can get at bargain prices and they are good. The Zeiss and Schneider lenses are slightly better and Much more costly.

Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000
From: "R. Hippert" [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: New Kiev 60 calibration site

Hello. I've put together a Kiev 60 calibration site that you may want to put up a link for.

http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60 (note: updated 8/2000)

It covers opening up the K60, focus screen adjustments, frame spacing fix (the correct way I might add) and TTL meter adjustment. It will eventually have shutter speed adjustments. My site also has actual photos of the steps which is something other pages and sites lack. I hope you find my site worthy of a link.

Thanks ,
Russ

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Optical quality ?
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000

> What was the camera body treatment?  I have the 250 and the 30, the Kiev60
> is coming later this week?

A kit of little bits and pieces of some kind of self-adhesive velvety stuff. Available from: www.baierfoto.de

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

From: Gary Sanford [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Schneider lens for Pentacon Six TL
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999

[email protected] wrote:

>Hi! everybody.
>
>I would like to know following informations:
>(1) Can lenses produced by Schneider fit directly for
>Pentacon Six TL without using any mount.
>(2) Where (home page) can I find data of these lenses.
>(3) Dealers which are willing to sell these lenes overseas.
>
>Thanks.

Here's a page in German that has all the specs for the lenses available in the P6 mount.

http://www.coburger.deu.net/text/pentacon.html

Here's a dealer in Germany.

http://www.arsenal-photo.com/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Sanford
Email here only:
[email protected] (pgp public key available)

From: Gary Sanford [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Schneider lens for Pentacon Six TL
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999

[email protected] wrote:

>Thanks for your informations. I own Pentacon
>Six TL and CZJ Biometar 80mm.Someone
>recommanded Schneider Xenotar 80mm to me.
>Lenses produced by Schneider seems to be good
>and rare. I searched on the net for used
>Schneider lenses but find nothing yet. How
>about buying a brand new, Is it worthy?

Well, are you unhappy with the Jena lens? Is it multicoated? I'm more familiar with the Kiev cameras and what some folks contend is flare problems with the lenses is a lack of anti-reflection treatment in the mirror box. Flock paper and/or Krylon Ultra-flat black will go a long way to solve that problem.

The Ukrainian 80mm."Arsat" is considered a good lens. A new multicoated version is about $30-40 and is available here: http://www.russianplaza.com/ and here:

http://www.camera.kiev.ua/

I have one and it's fine.

I have a bunch of Jena lenses and I think they are top notch. I don't have any personal experience with the Schneider lenses except by reputation. Whether they are really better than the CZJ lenses by any significant degree, I don't know. The certainly cost more.

There have been a lot of lenses in P6 mount on Ebay. I've bought a lot of stuff there from both in the US and Europe with no problem at all. Actually, airmail from eastern Europe has been faster than domestic UPS ground. Go figure.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Sanford
Email here only:
[email protected] (pgp public key available)

From: "omar27" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Webpage for Pentacon Six TL
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999

For more information on the Pentacon 6 TL and related family of cameras please see the links on my website.

Thanks. Omar

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/pentacon001.html

[email protected]

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000
From: "Schnickelfritz V." super_furby_nojunk@junkno_hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Wanted: Kiev 60 experiences

The most common complaint I have personally been familiar with is the film transport mechanism. Some people have "kissing and/or overlapping exposures"; some people have the opposite: exposures too far apart such that they get only 8-11 exposures on a 12 exposure roll. Other people have no problems whatsoever. In some cases, the fix is a relatively simple adjustment, but in other cases, the film transport gearwork or cams are not correct.

I would encourage you to visit the "Russian and Ukrainian Camera Enthusiasts" forum on Delphi.com:

http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/start/

There's a really nifty Web site for Kiev 60 calibration at:

http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/index.htm

Although I'm not suggesting that you should do your own repairs, you should read through both Web sites before you buy.

For myself, I've had enough "roulette" problems, and I'm sending my Kiev 60 to a dealer that upgrades the shutter and film transport mechanisms as well as perform a cleaning, lube, and adjustment.

Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000
From: Ken S. [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Extension Tubes/Bellows $30 at Kiev Camera

[email protected] (Sandy King) wrote:

>Anyone know of the availibility of extension tubes and/or a bellows for
>use on the Kiev 60? If so, sources would be appreciated.
>
>
>Sandy King

Extention tubes of 19 and 48mm can be had at http://www.camera.kiev.ua/ Price is $30 for the pair. I have seen these same extension tubes listed for upwards of $120 on some websites.

Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000
From: "omar27" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Pentacon six TL and metered prism

Marteya,

Please check my Pentacon six TL (including Kiev 60 and Exakta 66) website for more info:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/pentacon001.html

I generally use a spotmeter and the waist-level finder because the metered prism is a pain in the *ss (and heavy). Mine works accurately but you have to realize it is an uncoupled meter. First, you set the aperture on the outer ring, then adjust your meter's shutter speed until you get an acceptable reading through the meter's needle, then set both your f-stop and aperture on the camera to match the meter readings.

In any case look at the english online instruction manual belonging to Frank Coburger's German Pentacon Six webpage. The link for this manual is on page 6 of my webpage.

Regards,
Omar Alvarez

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Wanted: Kiev 60 experiences

C. Hickis [email protected] wrote:

> I'm very tempted to try a Kiev 60 for landscape photography (using a tripod)
> primarily because of the reasonable price & I've read that the lenses are of
> good quality. I've also read about flair & light leak problems causing
> fogging of film. I'd appreciate any experiences that some of you might have
> with this equipment. Does anyone know how to reduce or eliminate the light
> leak problems?

There are no light leak probs with the 60. These occur with the 88 because there are badly fitting backs.

There is a shutter prob with late production K60's. When cocked, the shutter curtains can open slightly and light will fall on the film. Can be fixed easily by any technician familiar with this camera. Decent dealers check their stuff before selling it.

Flare is a problem with the 60. There is a 10 USD kit available from www.baierfoto.de which is the only way to completely get rid of all flare probs including the worst-case scenario when using the 180 mm Sonnar.

Some people insist that the flare is caused by 'wrong' lens shades etc. After a lot of investigation and experimentation, my experience says it's the camera body.

Do buy from a reliable source, but it need not be Kiev USA. Be warned that there have been postings, lately, about a certain company in Prague appearing to have become somewhat reluctant to send the goods once they have pocketed your money.

Phhheeeeew. Could someone please comply some kind of K60 FAQ to be posted here, once per week. I'm always willing to help but I have to admit I'm getting a little tired of sitting here like a parrot, repeating the same things over and over again, every few days. :)

Having said this, you might want to search Dejanews for the last weeks worth of K60 related postings. Every possible question has been treated at least once, over the last days. :))

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Optical quality ?

Gary Sanford [email protected] wrote:

> Who sells these kits?

www.baierfoto.de

All in German but the owner can be contacted by email in English.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000
From: John Coan [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 camera

Buy from a dealer that lets you do an exchange. Mike Fourman in Atlanta is one. I bought mine from him but it worked great from the start so I didn't have to do it. I did have a small problem with the neck strap coming lose and he sent me a new one right away, no questions asked. Hell, I paid $172.50 for a Kiev 60, 80 mm MC lens, meter prism (and the meter is spot on compared to my Contax 645!), waist level finder, two filters, flash bracket, and case? Am I leaving anything out? Oh yeah, a poorly copied English instruction manual, and batteries were included.

The shutter works. The wind mechanism works without overlap. The lens didn't have a bubble. Luck of the draw I suppose, but like I said before, if you don't like it send it back and get a different one.

Did I say it takes good pictures?

And regarding bubbles in lens elements. There used to be a widely held belief that if you had a lens with a bubble, it was an excellent lens. This supposedly derived from the tendency of earlly lens glass from Schott Glass Works to have bubbles. Lots of early CZ lenses, of superb quality, had those bubbles. They don't affect the picture.

FOR THE MONEY, a Kiev 60 is an excellent way for someone to get started in MF. Another possible use is in rough places where the camera might get damaged. If it does, throw it away and get another one!

.....

Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999
From: "Paul R. Smargiassi" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Extension Tubes/Bellows

Sandy

Russian and Ukrainian Camera Enthusiasts forum is a good source of info at

http://www0.delphi.com/kievreport/

I bought a set of extension rings from Russian Plaza at

http://www.russianplaza.com/

Also try

Kiev camera(Micheal Fourman,sales)

http://www.kievcamera.com/

I have had good experiences with both of them

Paul Smargiassi

Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Kiev 60 supply reel 'brake' adjustment

Contrary to all claims that the K60 is prone to overlapping frames, I had some trouble with too wide spacing resulting in only 9 or 10 frames fitting on one film. This happened about once every 3rd or 4th roll of film. The same stock, I might add. So, variations in film thickness could be excluded as a possible cause.

After a while, it became clear that this had something to do with too little tension on the film resulting in slack and a larger than normal diameter of the amount of film already on the take-up spool. A clear case of too little brake action on the supply side.

So, as a complement to the very helpful explanation on how to adjust the transport given under http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/index.htm here's a little how-to for adjusting the supply-side brake action:

1. Open the camera back and remove the bottom reel retainer (the chrome-plated piece in the camera's bottom plate) by unscrewing the round threaded part on the inside. The retainer will come apart and can now be taken out.

2. Insert a long flat screwdriver through the hole opened by removing the retainer and undo the screw in the centre of the upper supply reel hub.

3. You'll find (in the order in which they come off) the centre screw, the hub (the round bit with the two teeth entering the supply reel), two plastic washers with a slightly rough coating on the two sides facing each other, a brass washer, and a metal washer made of spring steel and slightly bent to apply pressure to the two plastic discs.

4. Bend the spring disc a little more to increase the pressure (brake action) or flaten it to reduce pressure.

5. Re-assemble everything in the reverse order.

6. Check frame spacing using the method described at the address given above.

I know this isn't a masterpiece of a technical description but, then again, English isn't my first language. Any suggestions or corrections would be most welcome.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Camera

Marv Soloff [email protected] wrote:

> I have a Kiev 60. It is "built like tractor" with little or no quality
> control. It is uncomfortable to hold, klutzy to use with the TTL meter
> prism, makes strange noises when operating, and pieces fall off every
> now and then.

I do agree it is a little awkward to hold unless your hands are the size of toilet lids.

Other than this, most of the bad opinions on the K60 are a 'spill-over' from the deservedly rotten reputation of its capricious sister, the Kiev 88.

Do avoid late-production (> ca. 1992) K60 models. There is a known problem with the shutter curtains opening slightly when cocking the shutter. This only occurs on late models and it will be there or not, i.e. it won't appear after some time. Simply check for this by opening the camera and cocking the shutter while watching from the rear if light does leak through during the process.

If the K60's film advance mechanism has been adjusted for Eastern roll film (which is a lot thicker) there may be little or no space between individual frames, if you use the camera with our Western film stock. In some cases, overlap is possible. This is not really a defect and the camera can be adjusted to adapt it to thinner Western films if this hasn't already been done.

There is only one thing which needs to be observed: Always move the film advance lever in one slow but steady motion all the way to the stop and then do not let it flip back but simply lead it back to its normal position.

A well-adjusted 60 is a workhorse which will give you good and reliable service at an unbeatable price.

Do let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

[Ed. note: see Kiev Lens Specs Table ]
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
To: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
Subject: Kiev 60 and 88 lens table

Hi Bob,

Please find attached the Kiev 60 and 88 lens table. I'm sorry that it took so long to finish it, but in a way, it's good too, as I was finally able to find data on the old 300mm Tair. The data was from a Ukrainian acquaintance. I am a bit puzzled though- the resolution data is quite low, but my Salyut mount export version performs as well or perhaps just a bit better than my 250 Jupiter-36.

Hope this is useful.

Best wishes.

Kevin

Date: 20 Mar 2000
From: [email protected] (Chung Wong)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Pentacon 6 Frame Spacing Problem

Hello all,

I have read enough people who are having problem with Pentacon Six frame spacing. Personally, I own 3 Pentacon Six and I had problem with the spacing in the beginng also. Very often it is due to film loading and how do you wind the film forward.

There are a few faq out there about Pentacon Six and I remember they touch on proper film loading method.

- Never, use the winder to forward the film to match the arrow.

- Always, roll the film leader into the spool manually and make sure that it is tight.

- Match the arrow and then close the back, release the shutter and wind 4 times, the counter should be at 1 now.

*** Remeber ALWAYS wind the film forward in one continuous stroke AND ALWAYS use your thumb to bring the winder back to the original position! ***

Test the frame spacing by using an old 120 backing paper roll and set the shutter to B. While the shutter is open, use a pencil to mark off the frame on the backing paper and see if it is accurate. If the spacing is good then just make sure you repeat the loading procedure during an actual shooting.

If you still have problem with the spacing here is an old piece that was written by one of the in house Pentacon expert Sam Sherman about how to repair the problem: ($150 is a lot to pay for such repair as you can get another Pentacon Six with that much money)

Forum: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: R: Pentacon 6 vs Kiev 60 by weight?
Date: 08/29/1999
Author: FLEXARET2 [email protected]

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 8-29-99

Frame spacing should not be a problem on Pentacon 6 -

The spring fingers in the back that hold the film on the counter sprocket roller lose tension with the back closed. Just bend them up carefully to hold the film in contact with the roller.

Then if the film is still spacing too close - there is a stop post for the wind lever at the end of its travel.

This is mounted on an eccentric (off center shaft) you loosen a screw and it turns to allow the wind lever to travel further. That will increase the space between photos.

Those are the secrets. Don't abuse the Pentacon 6 and it will work fine.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999
From: "omar27" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian???

Dwight,

Please take a look at Pentacon 6 and Kiev information on my new "improved" website regarding East German and Ukranian cameras. I think it will help.

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/pentacon001.html

Thanks, and I welcome your comments.

Omar Alvarez

.....

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000
From: "Randy Ashurst" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Question?

Hi Cristie, I am just getting into these things myself. I received last week a Hartblei Studio Master which is a kiev 88 that has been blueprinted in Czeckslovakia. With the new updated backs they are very nice even have crank wind advance. Mine was $595 from www.russianplaza.com in Los Angeles. the owner is a great guy named Genna Kaplan.

My advice is to get the Kiev 60 TTL kit first. these are a true bargain and about to get scarce soon as the company isn't making them currently. It looks like a 35mm on steroids is about 4 lbs and very solild. Easy to use. My friend Genna has about 25 of these left and if you smooze him a bit he should sell you one kit for about $185-190. They have cloth shutter inside too. there's lots of tips on the kiev report list about these. Now the Hartblei is a much more awesome camera but there's none available except at Kalimex in Czecklslovakia. If you can find the magazine Shutterbug there have been special articles about the kiev cameras, they were in the Jan and Feb magazine and will be in the march edition which will be out soon. Those articles caused the surge in demands for the Kiev products.

I also got the 30mm Arsat fish eye lens for $190 it's and incredible lens full 180 degrees of spread and if it was a Hassleblad lens would be about $3500 or more. The Kiev 60 has the bayonet pracktika lens mount and I ordered my kiev 88 Studio Master with the same mount to get double usage out of the lenses.

That's the story till now be sure and go to www.delphi.com and find the kiev list. Lots of good info

Regards Randy Ashurst retired air force broadcaster
Brunswick, GA

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: 5 Feb 2000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Zeiss Biometar Photo Gallery

Hi folks,

This is my first time posting to this group although I joined about a week ago.

I notice many questions about the Hartblei Studio Master that is being sold at Russianplaza.com

I also have dealt with Genna Kaplan and can vouch for their quality service and affordable prices. I do not have a Hartblei Studio Master yet, but am planning to get one as soon as I can afford it. I also wanted to try out a Kiev 60 with mirror lockup/flocked interior.

I currently use a Pentacon Six TL with the Ukranian 30mm Arsat, as well as the Zeiss Jena Multicoated 80mm Biometar, and the highly regarded 180mm Sonnar. I hope to use these lenses on my StudioMaster 1006 once I have enough $$$.

Those interested in information on the Kiev 60, as well as the Pentacon Six can check out my website at:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/pentacon001.html

Also look at the newly added Zeiss Biometar Photo Gallery of Classic Cars:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/gallery.html

Please let me know what you think. I am constantly updating my site, especially when everyone gives information to add (or correct!). I need everybody's help because I do not own a Kiev, but have provided this information on my website.

Regards,
Omar Alvarez
Miami, Florida USA

[email protected]

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999
From: Woody Kamena [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Exakta 66?

I'm going to jump in here only because of the comment about the 60's "notorious" reputation for film advancing. Having two that that get a lot of use, I have had no problems. Also, ever time I run across a person who actually owns a 60 and says they have problems, a quick lesson on film loading and winding solves it. There are a lot of comments from people "who heard" or "who has a buddy that saw one once." It's second and third hand - actually owners tend to be pretty happy. You do get duds, but I've had to return new canon equipment, too!

I've also get a Pentacon 6 and Practisix, which are nice novelties, but don't work. Almost nobody wants to try and fix them (the keep mutter something about stampted gears) and when I do get somebody that will quote me to fix them, it's cheaper to by another Kiev 60!

Woody Kamena

Date: Wed, 8 DEC 99
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Exakta 66?

"Pentti P�rn�nen" [email protected] writes:

>I had a Kiev60 but I exchanged it for an old Bronica because of its problems
>with film handling. It was OK when I bought it, but after I had shot 2 rolls
>of film there appeared some overlapping. I sent the camera back to be
>repaired and after 3 months I got it back. It worked and I was happy with
>it, bought a Zeiss Jena 50mm/4 lens, I was happy till the problem appeared
>again. I had shot about 10 rolls without problems. Well, I sold the camera
>to the same store I had bought it and got Bronica EC-TL instead.

I hope this possible explanation of your film spacing problems doesn't make you feel bad about selling the Kiev 60, but .... My K60 had frames that barely "kissed", I solved the problem simply by using new-style Fuji spools (with the trapped "T" in the take-up slot). Fuji spools on the take-up side produce frame spacing. Kodak spools result in frames "touching". It doesn't matter if the film being fed is Kodak or Fuji. It also doesn't matter if the film leader hase the Fuji "paper-punch" ($ 1.00 at stationary stores if you must have the hole) hole or not.

My 2 theories:

1. The trapped "T" makes sure that the paper leader can't slip inside the spool take-up slot, thereby stretching the film tighter and not letting a just shot film frame from slipping back into the film gate to either touch frames or even overlap frames. I went to a lighting seminar where a Fuji rep said basicly this same thing and said Fuji offered to give away the trapped "T" "technology to any and all other film makers.

SIDE NOTE: If the Fuji spools really giver tighter and therefore flatter film register in the film gate, wouldn't this necessarily produce higher resolution negatives for any lens corrected for an accurate film/film plane alignment.....kind of like a semi-vacuum back or Koni-Omega active pressure plate (no wonder the negs from those Koni-O's look so good!)

2. I suspect that all the Kiev's tend towards the overlap side of the bell curve because East European films may have thicked film bases or paper thicknesses. Imagine all those Ukranians complaining of not getting the 13th picture when using the crummy Kodak film because of frame spaces that are too wide.

Wayne Catalano

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 99
From: "John Stewart" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Rough definition: Kiev cameras (MF)

Here's my take on why some Kiev MF owners are happy, others not.

I think it is fair to say (based on personal use on and off since 1976) that the Kiev MF cameras are a bit like unfinished furniture. In the old Soviet system, they were shipped to dealers essentially unadjusted. The dealer fine-tuned them, repaired poor assembly and then sold them. A prime example was Technical & Optical Equipment in London. There they literally disassembled each Russian camera and modified them before selling. (This was true of 35mm cameras as well.) Whether they made money on this is a good question. It was an Anglo-Soviet cooperartive, and hard currency may have been the goal.

While this kind of action doe not correct design flaws (poor spacing on Kiev 60s, for example0, it does remove most of the annoying glitches that seem to pop up in these cameras with some regularity.

Sadly, a large number of this unadjusted cameras are being sold from the factory to dealers who do not make the needed corrections. Other ones "just fell off a truck" and were "found." These are sold in the back streets of Moscow to tourists. I personally worked with a company that went over there with CASH, bought cameras without worrying too much about factory invoices, and then sold them here. Again, without needed adjustments.

Other companies remake the cameras and modify them. Their level of expertise varies. If they are lucky, they have a former factory person who knows the camera inside and out and is also good with tools. Then there are hacks who THINK they know the cameras, and those who just try to get along.

Hence the WIDE difference in experience with these cameras.

So, if someone has just returned from Moscow with a camera they are selling, it may not be a bargain.

Hope this helps. My .02 John

(Author of "From Russia With Lens" circa 1976 in Modern Photography. Currently author of "How To Buy Your First Digital Camera!" CD ROM www.acpress.com

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999
From: Woody Kamena [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 vs Kiev 6C + Volna vs Arsat

The Kiev 6C is the model previous to the Kiev 60TTL.

Differences are -

Kiev 6c has the shutter on the left side of lens, 60 on right
Kiev 6c will take 220 film (with pressure plate switch) - 60 won't
Kiev 6c - standard lens 90mm 2.8 - on the Kiev 60 is a 80mm 2.8
Kiev 6c produced from 1971-1980
Kiev 6cTTL from 1980-1986
Kiev 60TTL from 1984-1996ish (currently not being produces due to labor
problems at the factory - may be reintroduced)

First two digits of serial number (left of eye hole on back of camera) show year produced. Same for lenses.

Kneb is russian for Kiev. Typically, the Kneb are camera's labeled for domestic (russian/ukranian) use, Kiev for export. The Kiev 60, I don't think ever came in a "kiev" badge right from the factory. Maybe a badge a reseller made up when it was imported.

Let me know if you have more questions.

> What is the difference between the Kiev 60 and the Kiev 6C?
> Is there any difference between the ones badged Kiev and the ones badged
> Kneb?
> What is the difference between the 90f2.8 (Volna?) standard lens and the
> 85f2.8 (Arsat?) standard lens?
>
> I have searched all the websites on these cameras and not found this
> information anywhere. 

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 - experience ? opinions ?

Kenneth F. Musella [email protected] wrote:

> Oh the Hassie resemblance is definitely there and a draw, but if the
> camera is crap... As for the 60, I know even less. I'll research it.
> Do you have any personal experience with it or just familiarity with
> it ?  Thanks for your reply,

Ken,

I do use a K60.

You'll find all the basic information like the design, what lenses can be used, etc. on Rob M's website. Far better and more complete than I could provide it, here and now.

So, let me add a few comments from the perspective of someone who's learned how to tame such a beast plus a few things which I think are important.

Do get yours from a decent, reliable source. If you're seriously considering buying one from Kiev USA, though, you must be very rich and should be considering a used Bronica. ;)

Anyone trying to sell you a K60 with just the waist-level finder and offering to sell you q TTL metering prism for another 150 bucks is trying to rip you off. All cameras have been delivered by the factory complete with WLF, TTL prism, 80 mm lens, two filters, a neckstrap, and a leather case. The neck strap is lousy. Still, insists it's there as you'll need the ends that attach to the camera to fit any other strap.

Get the camera from a place where they give you a warranty. There are a few weak points, mostly due to negligent assembly like shutter curtains opening while cocking the shutter on late-production models, which either show up over the first few films or never will.

Practically all other so-called faults (overlapping frames etc.) of the 60 are really mis-adjustments which can be corrected quite easily. There is another web site (http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/index.htm) which has detailed explanations (with photos) covering most of these adjustments. With a little courage and a steady hand, you can do most of them yourself.

A well-adjusted 60 is a workhorse which will give you good and reliable service. The Russian lenses are quite good, the Zeiss Jena lenses, especially the later MC versions, are excellent, and the Schneider lenses are top-of-the-line world-class optics.

I strongly recommend the anti-flare kit available from Baier Foto (www.baierfoto.de). It eliminates all internal flare problems without the messy business of applying matte black paint to the inside of the mirror box.

If you're as bad as I am at holding a camera perfectly level I recommend the modified Rollei 6008 screen available from Wiese (ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/fotowiese). This is still brighter than the original and it has lines engraved which are a great help.

The choice of lenses is enormous. The range goes from 30 to 1000 mm. This includes special stuff like fisheyes, shift lenses, macro equipment, you name it - either Kiev or Pentacon have built it and it can usually be had for very little money by medium-format standards.

A few suggestions: the 50 mm Zeiss Flektogon is a great performer. Make sure you get a MC version with a lens shade. The 80 mm lens which comes with the camera is usually better than the Zeiss lens so keep this one and enjoy. The 120 mm Zeiss Biometar is a great portrait lens. The 2.8(!) 180 mm Zeiss Sonnar is very good but, due to the wide opening and the massive build, a little on the hefty side.

Well, this info plus that provided via the various links should keep you occupied for a day or two. If you still have questions, just ask. :)

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

From Contax Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000
From: "Pat Perez" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] Pentacon ???

I was reading on a Kiev discussion group on Delphi awhile back about the body flare problems in Kiev 60s. Apparently, it is very easy to rectify; you just get some flocking to apply inside the mirror box. From what I read the problem is reflections from inside the body. I expect you could probably get the stuff from KievUSA. If not, then the Delphi group should point you in the right direction. But as I recall, it is a simple, cheap, user-installable fix.

Here is a link to the discussion group:

http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/messages/

Pat

From Contax Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000
From: "Bob Shell" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] Pentacon ???

You can accomplish pretty much the same with nonreflective black paint applied carefully.

The Pentacon 6, Praktisix, Praktica 66 are painted inside the mirror box with a relatively reflective black paint and are not any better than a stock Kiev 60 in this respect.

Bob
.....

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Lens Flare / Internal reflection????

KevinR [email protected] wrote:

> Hi, I have one of the newer Kiev 60's. If I shoot in anything brighter  than
> a cloudy day I get a vertical flare line down the right side of the picture,
> approximently 1/2 inch from the right edge.

If this is a very well-defined vertical line, the usual culprit is the right roller, next to the frame window.

> The camera has the "flocked"
> interior but appears to be glossy.

Pardon?? Flocked or glossy??? Glossy flocking.....??? You're not making much sense, here, I'm afraid.

> Do you think it would be ok to carfully
> paint flat black paint over top of this glossy paint. Would flat black paint
> that would be used on plastic models be suitable?

I've done this using black matt Revell paint. Still, the problem persisted when I was using my 180 mm CZJ Sonnar.

Eventually, all probs could be solved by means of a self-adhesive velvet kit available from Baierfoto of Germany ([email protected]). Price here is 10 USD plus postage.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999
From: Alexander [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying Russian Cameras in Russia

Hurry up. The Arsenal department producing Kiev60 is already closed. At present time Kiev60 kit costs about 72$. I can describe you the way in Kiev where it is. And if you want really good (modified) Kiev60 (with mirror lockup and so on) which one may offer from Kalimex (www.dedal.cz) I can give you phone numbers in Kiev where they are produced (I hope someone will help your girlfriend to speak Russian/Ukrainian).

Alexander.

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

.....

Rick,

Forget the gaffers tape and load the film per the instructions and you shouldn't have frame spacing problems: frame spacing is about .090- .100 inch.

As for flare- I have 3 Kiev 88's and a Kiev 60. On the K88, one body is flocked, the other 2 aren't- I HAVE NO FLARE PROBLEMS WITH ANY OF THEM!!! With the K60, I have severe flare problems with the Carl Zeiss-Jena lenses for which I have No adapter to allow me to mount my Lee bellows shade( yet!). The Kiev 80mm with the factory rubber shade has NO FLARE problems!!

If you use a lens shade properly you should have no flare problems, and I would not waste money upgrading the camera unless experience mandates it!

Regards,

Kevin

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 99
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

[email protected] zu: "Re: Kiev 60":

> With the K60, I have severe flare problems with the Carl
> Zeiss-Jena lenses for which I have No adapter to allow me to mount my
> Lee bellows shade( yet!). The Kiev 80mm  with the factory rubber shade
> has NO FLARE problems!!

Now, take the shade off the 80 mm and you'll find that you still have very little or no flare.

My 180mm MC Sonnar, on the other hand, causes extreme flare on my K60, even with the lens shade.

Could it be that, in order to achieve their superb performance, the CZJ lenses cover a much larger area at the 'film end' than the Kiev lenses, i.e. the Kiev glassware simply doesn't illuminate those rather reflective surfaces inside the camera as much as the Zeiss lenses do?

> If you use a lens shade properly you should have no flare problems, and
> I would not waste money upgrading the camera unless experience mandates
> it!

As stated, the lens shade is no cure with the Sonnar. Might be the same with other Zeiss lenses. Still, no reason for throwing such obscene amounts of money at Kiev USA.

I'd either paint the inside of the camera using matte black paint (e.g. Tetenal) or get some adhesive flocking and do a DIY job.

A pre-cut self-adhesive flocking set for the 60 is available from www.baierfoto.de, although, if I'm not mistaken, this site is entirely in German. Their price is about 10 USD plus postage.

Cheers,
Ralf

Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG
Koeln/Cologne, Germany

Date: 02 Sep 1999
From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 9-1-99

Did construction of the Kiev 60 change at some point? My camera is a 1988 model and all is fine. For there to be flare, it must either be cuased by the lens, light coming into it or something in the camera that reflects light. Maybe people are using faster film 800-1000 than I used and the dull black paint is not dull enough.....?

Inside the mirror box it is painted with dull flat black paint on the bottom and the sides have dull black paint on corrugated, rippled plates. I never had reflection problems with Kiev or CZJ lenses - why do some cameras have these problems?

Is something different in the later 1995 models on...?

- Sam Sherman

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999
From: "Eugene Chen" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

Don't spend the money! Flock the interior is not a very difficult thing to do. With self-adhensive black flocking material from Edmond Scientific ($8 a BIG sheet enough to flock 50 cameras) and some patience, you can do it yourself. If your body or lens has problems there are other places that will service Kiev cameras at a much reasonable price.

Eugene

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 60 or 88??

[email protected] (Sandy King) wrote:

> > You may be suprised to learn that MOST of the frame spacing problems on
> > the K60 are user induced-- you MUST load the film correctly!! WOW, what
> > a concept!! You can get odd frame spacing on the K88 if you don't do it
> > correctly also, as I have discovered.
>
> So what is the right way to load film on the K60 to avoid frame spacing
> problems?

Sandy,

Assuming that there is not mechanical problem causing a frame spacing problem, here's how to load the K60:

Install the fresh film in the feed position, and pull out a couple of inches of backing paper. Thread the paper backing onto the takeup spool, making sure it is wound on straight- not overlapping onto the ends of the spool, and is also tight. After winding on about 3 turns of paper backing, use the takeup spool to pull out more paper as you pull the spool over to it's proper position, and lock it into place. Using your fingers-NOT the cocking lever, roll more paper onto the t/u spool until the start arrows on the paper line up with the red index mark in the back. Close the back cover, and cock and fire the shutter 3 times. Cock the shutter once more, and you should a 1 showing in the film counter window. You are now ready to go.

This may sound complicated, but it's not- it's actually quite easy.

Regards,

Kevin Kalsbeek

From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: "Best" year for Kiev 60? (please be kind!)
Date: 24 Apr 2000

In my opinion the Kiev 6C (6S) and the early Kiev 60 models (pre '90) are better made. I have had many of them and most worked perfectly.

I have seen later models which look rougher.

The TTL Prism was also changed and not for the better. The earlier prism took a Russian 3-625 battery and had a battery test switch and on for as long as one liked and better red LEDs inside. This was "improved" to take the 76 style batteries and has a switch which puts the meter on for approx 30 secs and then it goes off when it feels like. The internal LEDs are not as good and the construction not as good.

Once can get 3 Wein/air cells to replace the 3/625 batteries.

I have 2 of these earlier TTL prisms (which seem to be rare today) if anybody is interested- please write.

I still am keeping an early Kiev 60, which always worked well. I have had the early Kiev 6S, and these worked well. They also taked 220 film but have the shutter release on the left and do not take the flash shoe. The lens that comes with this is a 90MM, not 80MM and is excellent and close focusing. Get a Kiev 6C, they are cheap and a real surprise.

- Sam Sherman

From Kiev-88 Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000
From: "bdmphoto" [email protected]
Subject: Re: used kiev88

Dear Jose

I will not recommend to buy any used cameras unless they came from Kiev USA, Kiev Camera or Russian Plaza

I do sell only brand new. Price starts from $250 for the kit: Camera body, 80mm lens, 2 film backs , filters, waist level finder manual tripod adapter

Sincerely
Mike Fourman

From: John Coan [email protected]
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras

Yes, for $200 you can get a complete Kiev 60 kit consisting of:

Body
TTL Prism
Waist Level viewfinder
80/2.8 multicoated lens
Two filters
Strap
Batteries

I liked mine very much and purchased some Carl Zeiss Jena lenses for it. Recently sold it because I purchased a Pentacon Six.

Other than some user Rolleicord TLR's, I know of no other way to get into quality medium format gear so cheaply.

I bought mine from www.kievcamera.com in Atlanta. If you get a lemon, they'll swap it for another no problem. Be sure and check it out good when you get it.

PS ... Stay away from the Hassy copies. Get the 60. Choupick wrote:

> I just found a web site for kiev cameras, and I was wondering if anyone knew
> anything about them.  I don't have very much money and thought this would be a
> fun way to play around with medium format.  Are they worth the money?  how is
> ordering and shipping?

[Ed. note: Tadeusz shares a useful tip below!... Thanks!]
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000
From: Tadeusz Galkowski [email protected]
To: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
Subject: Odp: problem with KIEV 60

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your reply! Fortunately, everything seems to be working just fine. Before leaving the camera at a service, I followed somebody's advice and took two more rolls of film, paying much attention to hints found in the net, regarding proper loading and advancing of the film. The first roll had no spaces between frames, but the second was perfect. So far I have taken 6 or 7 rolls and spacing is as it should be. I even manage to get 13 pictures 6x6, instead of 12, just by setting the starting point some 12 milimetres before the red dot on the body.

So thanks again for your time, and many stunning shots to you!

Best regards,

Tadek Galkowski

From: "J.M. Vitoux" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras

"Ralf R. Radermacher" wrote:

> Vadim Zaliva  wrote:
>
> > Price and reliability aside, could somebody explain me in plain words
> > is there is any quality difference between Kiev-60 and Kiev-88CM
> > without any upgrades/modifications?  Which one should I purchase?
>
> This isn't so much a question of quality but rather one of complexity.
>
> The 88 is too complex for its own good.
>
> The design of the 60 is simple enough that it doesn't suffer too much
> from a quality of material and workmanship which admittedly isn't quite
> up to our Western standards.
>
> So, buy a 60.

Does it make sense to buy enhanced versions with mirror lockup? I read somewhere that the shutter was producing so many vibration by itself that locking the mirror didn't improve the situation much.

Since I'm at it, I've read as much on those cameras as I could on the net and couldn't find any feedback on the improved Kiev 60 by Fotowiese (Pentasix 66). Being outside the EC (VAT refund) and a weak DM (sorry :-)) make it quite attractive in terms of price. Furthermore, I generally have a good feel about German workmanship.

Kiev USA it quite expensive, Kalimex/Hartblei got enough bad feedback to reduce my interest and Exakta is a bit more than what I'm currently ready to put into MF.

So, what about Pentasix 66?

Thanks

Jean-Marc

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras

....

I don't know his Pentasix but I've bought an ordinary K60 from Wiese, last summer. He claims he checks and adjusts them and I guess he must know what he's doing or else I don't think he'd give a full year of warranty on these which is twice our legal warranty period.

Almost a year and well over 100 rolls later, still not the slightest problem. Had mine fitted with the Rollei screen, meanwhile, and I'm perfectly happy with it. I urgently recommend fitting Baier's anti-flare kit (www.fotobaier.de). Cured all my flare probs for good, even with the notorious 180 mm Sonnar.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
Ralf's Cologne Tram Page - www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

From: John Coan [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000
Subject: Re: Need (well...want) Cheap Med Format Camera

Go to www.kievcamera.com and purchase a Kiev 60 kit for $200. The Arsat lens is quite good. You get the body, lens, lens hood, accessory shoe, TTL metered prism with batteries, non metered waist level finder with integral magnifier, instructions in Russian, poor English translation, strap, and filters. When you get it make sure it works and exchange it if it doesn't. QC isn't Kiev's strong point, but when you finally get a good one the pictures are fantastic when compared to smaller formats.

Alternatively, get a used Rolleiflex 3.5E in user condition, or a Rolleicord Va or Vb.

...

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: the Kiev 60

[email protected] wrote:

> Is anyone here familiar with the Kiev60.. Ive heard some pros and cons
> about this camera.. it cant be all that bad I've seen one place offer
> a 1yr garuntee

Mine works perfectly well. Got it from Richard Wiese of Hamburg, Germany. Had it fitted with the Rollei screen and the Baier-Foto anti-flare kit. No probs after a year and about 100 rolls under all possible conditions including humidity, rain, heat, sub-zero temps, and lots of travelling over bumpy roads. No overlapping images, either.

Be warned, though, that there's a number of people on this newsgroup who never had a Kiev and wouldn't know one if fell in their lap, but they all know someone who had met a guy, one day, who had never seen one either but who knew for a fact that the K60 is no good at all. And as these are the real experts, I guess my stupid little experience just doesn't count, anyway.

If you have any further questions send me an email and I'll be glad to help.

Cheers,
Ralf

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras

Vadim Zaliva [email protected] wrote:

> Price and reliability aside, could somebody explain me in plain words
> is there is any quality difference between Kiev-60 and Kiev-88CM
> without any upgrades/modifications?  Which one should I purchase?

This isn't so much a question of quality but rather one of complexity.

The 88 is too complex for its own good.

The design of the 60 is simple enough that it doesn't suffer too much from a quality of material and workmanship which admittedly isn't quite up to our Western standards.

So, buy a 60.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
Ralf's Cologne Tram Page - www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000
From: 3turn [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Telephoto for Kiev-60

"I am looking very serious at the Kiev 60. It seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck but you hear the horror stories regarding quality control. What are your impressions so far.

Greg"

-------------------

Greg,

I've been using my Kiev fairly often for the past 18 months. I've put over 50 rolls of film through it, and I'm very pleased with it's performance. There isn't any real wear and tear on it that I've noticed - it's built like a tank. The only real "problem" I ever had was with some overlapping negatives. This was solved when I realized that I sometimes wasn't *fully* winding the frame advance all the way after each exposure.

Working through the metering process with the prism Kiev supplies, however, is a chore. I don't have a spotmeter, so I either use my 35mm camera's meter reading or use my own judgement to set the shutter speed and aperture.

So I don't like Kiev's meter prism, but then I prefer doing things manually anyway. All the bells and whistles on some other cameras I've had took the fun out of picture taking for me.

I usually keep the prism off and use the waist-level finder in it's place. The w/l finder is just as bright, a lot easier to look through, and makes the camera about a pound lighter.

One other minor point - the Kiev's frame counter only goes up to 12. So you need to keep count in your head after passing the 12th exposure.

The 80mm f/2.8 lens that came with the camera is very sharp and gives a nice bright image in the w/l finder. One word of caution - flare can be a problem with this lens, but if you always keep the flare guard on (it comes with the lens) you'll have no problems.

I also bought the 30mm fisheye. Its been said that the quality and the low, low price of the 30mm fisheye lens is reason enough for some to buy the whole Kiev-60 outfit. I agree wholeheartedly.

I hope this helps.

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000
From: John Coan [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Re: Rollei for everyday use (was klunker!)

I love Rollei TLR's but this is going to sound like heresy. I've got my fireproof suit on now so here goes....

One good cheap camera worth considering for bang around use is a Kiev 60. They go for around $180 brand new for the complete kit... camera, lens, filters, strap, and TTL meter prism. I had one and used it for about a year with excellent results. And I didn't have to worry about getting it lost or stolen. I sold it only when I purchased an "upgraded" Pentacon Six, which uses the same lenses. My Pentacon is nice too, but I can't quite subject it to the rigors of use without some pangs of conscience. It isn't as light as my Rollei 2.8E, which is so beautiful and unbanged that I am loathe to use it where it might get damaged.

One benefit of the Kiev is that if you love Zeiss glass you can use the Zeiss Jena lenses on it. They are pretty dern cheap for medium format lenses. The 80/2.8 multicoated version can be had for around $100, and the Sonnar 180/2.8 MC is about $350 on the used market. However, the Ukranian glass is actually pretty good in and of itself.

Shutterbug had some good articles on the Kiev around January and February. Quality control is terrible, so if you get one be sure you can return it if it is a lemon. Mine was fine right out of the box though. I got it from Mike Fourman in Atlanta. His web site is www.kievcameras.com

I also have a Rolleicord IV that I gave my wife to use and she hasn't had time to put it through its paces.... Seems like a nice camera though and very simple to operate.

...

Date: 09 Sep 2000
From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

I met a photographer from Kiev who was on a visit here to the USA. He specialized in taking 120 Chromes of Dogs and Cats posed in his studio.

The quality of his work was outstanding and I advised him to try calender publishers here and others that might have use for his work. His genius was in how he posed the animals.

I asked him what he had used to shoot these shots and he told me that he used a Kiev 88. The work was all well exposed, sharp and first rate. My own experience in owning one of these cameras, is that they are capable of fine work.

However, they run a high defective rate (poor quality control) from the factory and with rough handling will jam. I found that the Kiev 60, while not a Hasselblad style camera, is generally more well made and I think has a lower defective rate and is less likely to break down. I have had one for 10 years with no problems. As the Ukranian lenses are good and the same glass is used for both cameras, I suggest the Kiev 60 as a good low cost medium format option.

Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000
From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Upgrade

Mike Katona wrote:

> Some comments please on the Kaminski $225 Kiev 60 upgrade?
> Thanks in advance

Mike:

Own a Kiev 60 and seriously thought about it. In my opinion, the Kiev 60 is the photographic equivalent of a kit car -questionable quality, questionable assembly, strange ergonomics, etc., but it runs - and the Kiev 60 makes fine pictures (at least for me). There may be an alternative to the KievUSA upgrade. Some photo guy in the midwest or west is working on an owner upgradable "Super Kiev 60" using the standard Ukranian iron as a starting point. He is proposing a MLU, motor drive, easier metering, etc. He has already offered a small booklet on upgrading/calibrating the Kiev 60 TTL prism. If this project is for real, then I would suggest you sink the $225 into a set of WIHA tools and Swiss needle files and prepare to gut and rebuild your Kiev 60. I don't have the URL handy, but I am sure a good search will turn it up.

If I can find the info, I'll post it.

Regards,

Marv

Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000
From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Upgrade

Mike Katona wrote:

> Some comments please on the Kaminski $225 Kiev 60 upgrade?
> Thanks in advance

Found it:

Russ Hippert
K60 Calibration
475 Lindale Drive #44
Springfield, Oregon 97477

Kiev 60 Calibration Book $15.00 plus $3.20 s&h. The URL I have is a mess.

Regards,

Marv

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
[1] Re: Kiev 60 and Sonnar f2.8/180
Date: Sat Oct 21 01:35:01 CDT 2000

While the mounts on Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60 Look the same - they are not always the same.

And there can be problems with lenses and accessories not working properly from one to the other - 15 years of testing these cameras proves this.

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000
From: genesis [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Upgrade

Try here

http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60/

for some Kiev 60 info

genesis

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60...

Peter Caplow [email protected] wrote:'

> I have had three Kiev 60's.  The first 2 were supposedly new cameras,
> purchased on Ebay, and I returned both of them because of defects.  The
> third one was a used, but like new, camera, also from Ebay, which I paid a
> hundred dollars for initially.  The seller refunded fifty dollars when it
> turned out that the shutter was operating intermittently.

That much on buying a Kiev from ebay. Obviously, it can't be repeated often enough: If you buy a Kiev camera do so from a known and trusted source. This does not necessarily have to be Kiev USA.

> 3)  The ground glass screens in the viewfinder are often mottled or have
> some areas brighter than others.

Wiese of Hamburg will fit any K60 with a Rollei 6008 screen. I have it in mine and it's great.

Many of the 'defects' of the K60 are simply adjustments which have or have not been carried out by the dealer.

> 6)  Spacing between adjacent frames on the film is usually either too wide
> or too small.

Eastern roll films have a much thicker paper backing. For obvious reasons, they adjust their cameras for these films, at the factory. Buy your K60 from a decent dealer and he'll adjust it to our thinner films. Buy it on ebay and you'll have overlapping frames.

> 8)  The interior of the standard Kiev 60 has many shiny parts which cause
> degradation of the image under some circumstances.  Painting the interior
> surfaces with a flat black paint or applying a flocking kit can solve this
> problem

http://www.baierfoto.de

> 11)  Great care must be taken while advancing the film because the advance
> lever mechanism is quite fragile.  Advancing too rapidly or allowing the
> advance lever to snap back quickly can cause damage.

I haven't heard of any instance of this happening with the K60. This is a problem of the Pentacon Six.

> 12)  Weak pressure plate springs sometimes cause the film to buckle
> excessively on one side or the other resulting in pictures that are
> partially out of focus.

As above. A notorious P6 problem.

> Many of these problems can be corrected, but it's not worth doing unless you
> are willing to do it yourself.  The cost of having a professional repairman
> do it would easily exceed the value of the camera after the repairs were
> done.

Or buy from a reputable source and you won't have to worry about all this.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
http://www.free-photons.de

Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001
From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Kiev 60 Black Paint - Follow Up

As posted earlier, I painted the mirror box of my Kiev 60 with a flat deep black paint. Shot two rolls of Plus X Pan on my office buildings to see if I could pick up flare from all the glass surfaces. Just processed the negs and can report no flare problems - nada - nothing. So, for 79 cents (USD) and a half-hour of effort I can forget about the dreaded Kiev 60 flare problem forever. The negatives are crisp and razor sharp. Curiously, no frame spacing problems - the spacing is right on the money and even end to end. The meter in the TTL mirror prism is worthless. I yanked the batteries and went to my trusty Luna Pro.

I have upgraded my Kiev 60 from "sell" to "keep".

Regards,

Marv

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000
From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Kiev 60 Flat Black Paint

Like so many other owners of the Kiev 60 SLR, I have been troubled with flare coming off the not quite flat black paint Arsenal used to "finish" the mirror box of this camera. I refinished the mirror box with a dead flat black acrylic paint called "Anita's All Purpose Acrylic Craft Paint 11002 Black/Noir" available at an A. C. Moore craft shop at 79 cents for a 60 ml bottle. It appears to do the job. For those owners of the Kiev 60 who still have the flare problem, I suggest getting Russel Hibbert's fine "K60 Kalibration" guide and following his instructions.

Try: http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60/

Download the full manual and print it out.

Regards,

Marv

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Flat Black Paint

Marv Soloff [email protected] wrote:

> Like so many other owners of the Kiev 60 SLR, I have been troubled with
> flare coming off the not quite flat black paint Arsenal used to "finish"
> the mirror box of this camera. I refinished the mirror box with a dead
> flat black acrylic paint called "Anita's All Purpose Acrylic Craft Paint
> 11002 Black/Noir" available at an A. C. Moore craft shop at 79 cents for
> a 60 ml bottle. It appears to do the job.

Although I think that for the faint of heart the adhesive anti-flare kit sold by Baier is still the more elegant solution. I have tried both and the kit has a slight edge in performance over painting.

Info and more at: http://www.baierfoto.de

The usual disclaimers apply.

Ralf

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000
From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Flat Black Paint

....

Ralf:

Your point is well taken. The problem I have with the adhesive flocked paper is:

1. I didn't have any.

2. Precision die-cutting of the individual pieces. Baier has, I think done a good job of producing his kit. Others have not.

3. Adhesive "creep" in hot weather - possible fouling of the mechanism when the camera is used in very hot climates. I am thinking of taking the Kiev to the Serengeti - so it was a consideration.

4. Possibility of the "flocking" material to abrade off fouling either the curtain shutter or the film or both.

I just took a look at the paint job and decided to do a second coat. Man, is that black! I think by tomorrow, when the second coat is dry, my flare problems will be gone forever.

Thanks for your input.

Regards,

Marv

From: Billy [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001
Subject: Re: what do you think of KIEV

MirageTmirage wrote:

> I have seen kiev medium format cameras selling for very little.  I am curious
> if this is a good way to get into medium format or if I should save my money for
> something better

My personal opinion:

For the money, they are pretty good. You could do better with, as others suggest, a Mamiya 645 and an adapter for the Kiev lenses, but that's quite a bit more money.

If you don't intend on using this to make money with, or heavy usage, Kiev's are great. However, I'd recommend a Kiev 60 over the 88, and keep in mind that it's a 'some assembly required' kind of camera.

Some recommended accessories:
Flocking kit (prevent reflections):

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1207201754

Contact the guy running this auction, he sells the flocking kit for $7.00 USD on e-Bay all the time.

Battery tube and spring:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1211179968

This guy also sells these things all the time. I wouldn't spend more than $10 for the kit, you can make one yourself pretty easily, but it's nice getting the holder for the spring.

If you buy the camera off e-Bay, get it from lemiu, his stuff is mostly old stock, but if your camera is broken when you get it, he'll swap it for another one. Otherwise, go with www.kievcamea.com or www.kievusa.com.

If you want to know what will probably need to be done to your camera (by *you*) read this:

http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60/

Oh, one last thing, try to get a Kiev 60 made since 1988, the serial number will start with '88'.

--
-Billy e-mail - billy_rpd at yahoo dot com checked weekly

From: Peter Caplow [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev 60...

I'd suggest you stick with the Pentax if you're really interested in taking pictures. I like Kiev 60's but I don't try to fool myself into thinking that they are real cameras. Though I am fully aware that the Kiev 60 is junk, I still can appreciate it as a mechanical artifact with its own unique approach to medium format design.

I have had three Kiev 60's. The first 2 were supposedly new cameras, purchased on Ebay, and I returned both of them because of defects. The third one was a used, but like new, camera, also from Ebay, which I paid a hundred dollars for initially. The seller refunded fifty dollars when it turned out that the shutter was operating intermittently. Based on my experience with these three cameras plus postings on the Medium Format Digest (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-one-category.tcl?topic_id=35&category=Kiev),

The Kiev Report Forum (http://forums.delphi.com/kievreport/messages/), The Kiev 60 Camera Page (http://lost-oasis.com/kiev/) and a few other Web sites and newsgroups, I would say that the following list of potential defects represents problems often encountered with new or used Kiev 60's. 1 through 9 are problems that I have experienced personally:

1) The 80mm standard lens is often extremely soft wide-open.

2) When the lens is focused to a distance of three feet or less, light leaks into the lens through the opening for the depth of field preview lever.

3) The ground glass screens in the viewfinder are often mottled or have some areas brighter than others.

4) The exposure meters built into the finders are usually quite inaccurate and non-linear.

5) No currently available battery fits the battery compartment on some of the older prisms. In order to use the meter, it is necessary to construct some sort of spacer that will allow the use of physically smaller batteries.

6) Spacing between adjacent frames on the film is usually either too wide or too small.

7) It is not uncommon for brand-new cameras to have pinholes in their shutter curtains

8) The interior of the standard Kiev 60 has many shiny parts which cause degradation of the image under some circumstances. Painting the interior surfaces with a flat black paint or applying a flocking kit can solve this problem

9) Body parts sometimes fit poorly with excess glue visible. On my second Kiev, the entire top of the camera was mounted slightly askew.

10) Prisms are sometimes mounted so loosely that they rattle around on top of the camera.

11) Great care must be taken while advancing the film because the advance lever mechanism is quite fragile. Advancing too rapidly or allowing the advance lever to snap back quickly can cause damage.

12) Weak pressure plate springs sometimes cause the film to buckle excessively on one side or the other resulting in pictures that are partially out of focus.

In addition to these fairly common problems, my third Kiev suffers from 2 additional faults which are apparently not as common as the ones listed above. The first is a shutter whose slower speeds periodically stop working. The first curtain opens but the second curtain never closes. In addition, the focusing on this camera is slightly off.

Many of these problems can be corrected, but it's not worth doing unless you are willing to do it yourself. The cost of having a professional repairman do it would easily exceed the value of the camera after the repairs were done.

Peter Caplow

Russ Hippert's web page at http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/homepage is working but there is no link to the Kiev 60 calibaration page. I emailed him on 12/14/00 at [email protected] asking for some way to obtain a copy of the calibration manual, but so far I have received no reply.

Peter Caplow

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev 60...

C.L.Zeni [email protected] wrote:

> Looking for experiences with this beast, preferably those that have come
> from KievUSA or one of the other sources that act as the Krasnagorst
> Quality Control Dept.

The Kiev doesn't come from Krasnogorsk (Russia) but from ... surprise, surprise... Kiev in the Ukraine. By now a different country altogether.

I've been using my present K60 for two years with no probs at all over more than 100 rolls of film. Bought it from Richard Wiese of Hamburg, Germany, for the equivalent of 200 USD. He grants a warranty of one year and he's been in business for a long time so I guess he knows what he's selling.

You don't have to buy from Kiev USA to get a decent K60. Their prices are outrageous.

The usual probs mentioned elsewhere in this thread like overlapping etc. are explained on bobms pages and links and can be corrected by a simple adjustment.

Does anyone know where Russell Hippert's K60 calibration site has gone?

But don't take my word for it. All I can offer is the experience of an ordinary user.

There are many people in this group who'll be happy to tell you everything about Eastern cameras with the authority of the real experts, those who had an aunt who once met a man who knew for a fact that Kiev cameras are the Yugos of FIAT or whatever.... much too complicated for me to understand.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
http://www.free-photons.de

From: Randy [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev 60...

I agree!

Kiev USA prices are outrageous! for what you get....

You can pick up a good kiev 60 from www.kievcamera.com and you can't beat it for about $220.00 with a good 200 day warranty.

head on over here:

http://forums.delphi.com/kievreport

and you'll find any answers to any of your questions about kievs

regards
Randy

From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001
Subject: Re: step-up to MF (pentacon 6...?)

Luigi de Guzman [email protected] wrote:

> 2)  The Kievs.
>
> 3)  a Pentacon 6.
>
>   I haven't heard anything about the Pentacon 6 or the CZ Jena lenses that
> go with it.

Look here:

http://www.free-photons.de/k60.htm

Also, there's a bunch of pictures taken with my Kiev 60, in the gallery.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
coming soon: http://www.free-photons.de

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Jeff S [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 08 2001
[1] Re: Kiev 60 not produced?

FREDRIK NILSSON wrote:

> Is it true that the Kiev 60 is no longer produced?

That's my understanding, yes. However, availability of circa 1995 units (unused, in original box) is still good, so it makes sense to stop production at least until supplies run low.

Jeff S

From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 flocking kit

FLEXARET2 wrote:

> from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman)  4-4-2001
>
> The Kiev 60 and 88 Flocking kits are usually sold on Ebay.
>
> I have a Kiev 60 from 1988 and I never had a flare problem and I don't  know
> what all of this flare complaining is about.
>
> I have a Salyut-C (from 1978) predecessor of Kiev 88 and no flare  problem too.
>
> An anybody explain in detail what the problem is. Is it only in the  later
> models?

Sam:

On many of the later Kiev 60's, the mirror box is finished in a shiny black paint, and in my camera, the transfer rod at the bottom of the mirror box was left unpainted (shiny metal). So, I painted the inside of the mirror box with a dead flat black paint. The flare I had on my prints is now history.

I used paint because:

a. it was available and very cheap - 79 cents for a fair-sized bottle.

b. I shy away from flocked paper in a camera due to the tendency of flocking material to shed. Not to say that the Baier Photo kit will shed, but it is possible and the adhesive that holds the flocking will separate with time and temperature.

c. The cost of the Kiev 60 was so low, it was not cost effective to have the camera professionally done.

My Kiev is now flareless. It took a total of 40 minutes (2 coats) working under a strong light with a small paintbrush. The cost of the paint was negligible.

Regards,

Marv

From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 09 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 flocking kit

I have never had any type of similar flare on the Salyut-C or Kiev 60 and that includes shooting directly into the sun at sunset for unsual effects. In using old Bronicas various Rolleiflex and other TLR cameras I have not found a similar problem. Except on the early model of Bronica Deluxe, which had a light leak on all models near the focusing mount. I corrected this on one camera and the factory corrected this on later models.

Re- Salyut-C I have had some problems with the mechanics of one camera which I am now selling cheaply on- marketplace.medium format. I am getting some other Salyut-C cameras and Kiev 88 types and am continuing my experiments with them. I may find that flare problem yet in later models.

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001
From: "J-2" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 60 - Do I have a lemon? [LONG]

[email protected] wrote:

>I know that on the Kiev88 and many soviet RF one should not
>change shutter speeds without the shutter cocked, or
>something may break. I am not sure if this is the case here.

The Kiev 60's shutter design allows changing of shutter speeds whether the shutter is cocked or not. Unlike the Leica-style shutters of the Soviet 35mm RF's, the K60 has a fixed, non-rotating shutter dial similar to the shutter dials of later focal plane shutter 35mm SLRs like the Pentax spotmatic which can be changed without tensing the shutter first.

Regarding the K60 mirror which doesn't return quite fully and the advance lever which seems to be stuck somewhere- try a technique I used with my K60: take off the lens, and using your finger, gently pull down the mirror down to its full 'viewing' position, making sure to touch only the edges. The advance lever usually snaps back to its proper place once the mirror locks into its 'down' position.

www.edsamail.com

From Russian Camera Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001
From: Marc James Small [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: http://www.kievusa.com/

Bob Shell wrote:

>I have two Kiev 88
>cameras from them and both work flawlessly.  I also have a 60 and 645,  and
>both of them also work flawlessly.

This is an unnecessary expense to go to, Bob. I have owned four or five Kiev-88's over the years, and a couple of 60's, all purchased from the SPS world. One of the 60's required a $50 service from Eddie Smoloff; all of the other cameras have always operated flawlessly. I paid $100 for a couple of these and $200 was the most expensive of the lot. These were complete SOVIET camera kits straight from the USSR. To be polite, I would avoid Kiev USA simply on the grounds of cost, though their quality has been severely challenged both here and on the Medium Format Digest, as well.

Marc
[email protected]

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001
From: "parlin" [email protected]
Subject: Kiev60 and 300/4

Hi group,

I don't know of any Kiev60 group and since K60 is a very close next-of-kin of K88 here we go:

I recently acquired a CZ 300/4 and I found the top part of the view finder is cropped for about 1/2cm or <1/4 inch or there about.

I didn't notice it at first with the prism (because the prism crops the viewfinder anyway, the top does appear rather dim though) but very obvious with WLF.

However the few test picts I took are A-OK. The images appear proper on on the film plane, i.e. the cropped section DOES appear on the film plane - I tested this by setting the shutter at B and placing a thin white translucent paper on the film plane to check the framing. I can confirm this after I collect the 2 rolls I ran over the wknd.

Any idea?

re QC: I find K60 is generally an easier beast to tame than K88, apart fr the cropped view with 300mm, too tight mounting for non Russian P6 lenses (I had to change the screws on my CZ lenses) and kissing frames which I fixed it for good, otherwise it's quite smooth. I get to use CZ lenses (50,80,120,300) and everything cost about what I paid for Minolta 800si+24-85 combo: beat that! My Salyut-C will be sitting in the cabinet for now...

thanx,
parlin

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev60 and 300/4

Kelvin and all,

HERE IS THE SECRET:

The Kiev 6C and the Kiev 60 have a major problem. It does not show up normally only in Macro photos and photos with tele lenses generally of 250MM and over.

The mirror when it goes up - "bounces" until it comes to rest. When it bounces down it covers part of the frame on tele shots.

At one time, I was involved with the test marketing of Kiev 60 cameras in the US as "PRO 66" with that nameplate. Has anybody seen any of those cameras?

My study of Primarflex cameras and Pentacon 6 cameras showed that the mirror was trapped by a flat spring to stay put in those cameras. Our test camera was done with a spring trap from an old Primarflex and it worked fine.

We then had a spring company make those same flat metal springs as in Primarflex for the Kiev 60.

My own Kiev 6C and Kiev 60 are still modified that way.

When the mirror goes up it is trapped by the braking action of the spring and cannot bounce down to cut off part of the image as has been reported.

Please send this around and post it far and wide. MAYBE THE FACTORY WILL MODIFY THOSE CAMERAS FROM NOW ON.

- Sam Sherman

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Kiev 88 Neckstraps

Can anybody help me with a Kiev 88 neckstrap problem?

The Kiev 88CM comes with a flimsy woven neckstrap and lock on attachments which easy disconnect from the camera. I fear the camera crashing to the pavement.

The Salyut-C (perhaps like the earlier Kiev 88 models) has smaller neckstrap studs than the Kiev 88CM and takes a different neckstrap, which also easily disconnects from the camera.

Anybody know which of these cameras will fit a good quality Hasselblad strap which locks on tightly and will not open? Some years ago I had such a strap for an early model (1980) Kiev 88.

And, where I can get such a strap. Failing getting a better strap, I am considering modifying the two straps I have to lock them onto the camera more permanently.

FYI- For Kiev 60 the heavy duty neckstrap for Bronica EC and S2A locks on very well for that camera, far better than the low quality strap which comes with it.

- Sam Sherman

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Kiev 88 Neckstraps

Looking to get a better neckstrap for Kiev 88CM and Salyut-C - with different neckstraps posts,

I saw some information on the Delphi Kiev group stating that the- Optech Neoprene Wide Strap for Kiev and Hasselblad would work on the Kiev 60 (which has a different post) and Hasselblad (which has which kind of post?)

Anybody have info on this?

Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000
From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 and Sonnar f2.8/180

Dave Hanon [email protected] wrote:

There are a few points which you could check:

- Is the Sonnar the only lens you have for the K60? Does it work OK with any other lens?

- If you take the Sonnar off the camera and set the diaphragm to 22, it should be closed and then open when you push the pin at the rear of the lens. On releasing the pin, the diaphragm should close instantaneously. Any drag in doing so may be the cause of your problem.

- If you look at the camera bayonet with the lens removed, the diaphragm actuating lever is at about 8 o'clock inside the bayonet. If you cock the shutter, the diaphragm control lever should move towards the camera front by about 8 mm. As long as you push the DOF preview lever, it retreats by about 10 mm. On firing the shutter, it should move to the rear instantaneously.

Do let me know how you get on.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K�ln/Cologne, Germany
http://www.free-photons.de

Date: Thu, 03 May 2001
From: Billy [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 and ease of repair

Mark Blackwell wrote:

> How easy are the Kiev 60s to take apart, fix and put back together?

It depends on what breaks. Here's some pages worth reading.

Detailed instructions for most minor adjustments:
http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60/

A discussion group about Kiev's, and good links:
http://www0.delphi.com/kievreport/

Basic use instructions:
http://lost-oasis.com/kiev/

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:10:42 -0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Waist level finders

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 8-18-01

to: [email protected]

Rich,

The K60 waist level finder is a copy of the old Rolleflex TLR finder.

If you push in the front rectangle to open the open sportsfinder it
positions a mirror
to angle the lower groundglass finder image back to the lens in back.

In short, if you are using the sportsfinder to follow action you can see the
screen from the back upside down for focusing-
or use it with tele lenses instead of the prism - if you can view upside down like a view camera.

- Sam Sherman

From: Billy <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 opinions...
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001

JR wrote:
>
> I am thinking of grabbing one of these truly inexpensive MF cameras for
> some fun and portraits and learning...Any opinions on the camera, lenses
> and quality?

I'd highly recommend a Kiev 60 as a starter MF camera.
I've had one for about a year and have only put a few
dozen rolls through it but have not had any problems.

If you get the camera from e-Bay, or one of the super
cheap places, it may not have had the frame spacing
problem fixed. It's not all that tough to do if you're
somewhat mechanically inclined. 

Here's some links that you may find of interest:
http://lost-oasis.com/kiev/
http://sites.netscape.net/rsp120/K60/

The only adjustment that I had to make on mine was
the frame spacing adjustment, everything else worked
right out of the box. I did add the flocking kit
mainly because it was easy to do and seemed like a
good idea, I never noticed a problem.

You'll also need a light meter, the prism finder has a
meter built-in, but I much prefer the waist level finder,
and I prefer to use at least two flashes when shooting
portraits, so I got a meter.
--
-Billy e-mail - billy_rpd at yahoo dot com checked weekly 

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 
From: Leonard Flanagan <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: bronica hacking nomination

Sam Sherman says I should send you a link to my articles on hacking
Rubinar and MTO mirror lenses for use on Kiev 60 / Pentacon 6 cameras.

Here's the link to my index page:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~dnlflanagan/Projects.html

Regards,

Leonard Flanagan

From: Franck Maubuisson [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 and Pentacon Six lenses
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 

I believe late K60 have a better inner paint, mine (a '95 vintage, i believe)
has a decent flocking and no flare problem. (On the other hand, it had all other
possible problems).

As far as weight is concern, if the P6 is heavy, the kiev is heavier, but the
global ergonomy of the kiev is quite better, the finder is muuuuch better.

If you ever go for the P6, try to find a non-metered prism, they are not as bad
as the metered ones. P6 can be convenient for portrait, (lighter, possible use
of 220 film) but with wide angles, a decently adjusted Kiev is definitely better
(in my opinion). Though the 4/50 was made for the P6, the P6 does not allow to
use it efficiently. The same goes for the kiev 30mm fisheye.


"Ralf R. Radermacher" a �crit :

> Student [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "This is worst if the camera is used with the 180 mm Zeiss Jena Sonnar.
> > There is a cheap self-adhesvie flocking kit available from Baier Foto that
> > you can fit yourself and which cures this problem for good."
> > I'm going to use this lenses I own it now. Is it realy big problem for
> > portrait photography???
>
> I would seriously recommend fitting the camera with the flocking kit for
> *any* kind of photography. You may get along without or you may not.
> Mind you, we're talking about an 'investment' of around 20 DEM.
>
> Ralf
>
> --
> Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
> private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
> manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 5 Sept. 2001
> Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses



To: [email protected]
From: "spounderuk" [email protected]>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 
Subject: [medium-format] Re: What camera?

Hi Sam,

I followed your advice many months ago regarding the Kiev-60 and 
bought one on eBay. It certainly is a bargain and produces 
consistently excellent results, far better than I should expect, 
given the low cost of the beast (under $100 if I remember correctly).

At the low price I can live without the interchangable back. I could 
buy another body to serve this function but don't want to have to lug 
my gear round in a wheelbarrow ;o).

Next purchase will be the fisheye for it at approx. $120 on eBay :o).

Best wishes
Stephen Pounder


--- In medium-format@y..., flexaret@s... wrote:
> from: flexaret@s... (Sam Sherman)  1-9-02
> 
> to: medium-format@y...
> 
> John,
> 
> I think the best medium format buy today is a 6x6cm slr - the New Black Kiev
> 60 with Mirror Lockup
> and full kit.


To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: [medium-format] Best MF

Frank,

I have had excellent results from Kiev 88CM and Salyut-C and later regular
Kiev 88 with added Hartblei crank.

However, I am more sophisticated in medium format equipment to the problems
and upgrades which can potentially
be needed with this equipment.

I have had a Kiev 60 since 1988 and trouble free. It is very versatile and
capable of pro results.
It is the smoothest winding Medium Format camera I have. With its Kiev
60/Pentacon 6 lens mount it can also
take a wide variety of Carl Zeiss Jena lenses and accessories. It comes with
a nice TTL prism and waist level finder.

The new Black, mirror lockup model from Kiev Camera is an upgraded unit, so
sure to be reliable and accurate.

The people who have bought these cameras seem very happy with them and they
are not expensive.

Once you get into this system you can consider Kiev 88CM later on and your
lenses will fit that camera.

Kiev 88CM is now going through an upgrade process where various minor bugs
and problems are being eliminated.
It is a wonderful camera and will be even better in 6 months or so.

My advice is start with a new black Kiev 60 with warranty.

Once you are into the medium format world you can look into other models and
be more prepared for their
eccentricities.

- Sam Sherman


----------
>From: Frank Weir [email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [medium-format] Best MF
>Date: Thu, Jan 10, 2002, 11:35 AM
>

>Hi Sam!
>
>But what do you think of the Kiev 88CM? Looks like a
>nice unit and of course you have the interchangeable
>backs option unlike the 60. What's the reliability of
>the 88CM vis a vis the 60 I wonder??? I've been
>looking at Salyuts on Ebay Sam...I think you are a big
>fan of that camera no?
>
>For myself, I think the Koni Omega 6 x 7 is a
>tremendous medium format starter camera. Its big as
>they all are but the images are astounding! And I paid
>about $175 on Ebay for the camera, lens, and back.
>THat's pretty cheap and not a big deal if you end up
>not liking the camera or format. You could resell it
>for what you bought it for in all likelihood. You
>won't find much at that price for the plastic 35 mm
>auto focus bodies these days and the Koni images will
>blow away anything from Canon or Nikon. Heck, 6x7 is
>many times larger than a 35 mm neg. Also, the Kowa 6x6
>is a good medium format option and also affordable on
>Ebay.
>
>frank weir
>
>
>> I think the best medium format buy today is a 6x6cm
>> slr - the New Black Kiev
>> 60 with Mirror Lockup
>> and full kit.


From: [email protected] (Hartmut Krafft)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei?
Date: 6 Nov 2001 

Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
wrote:

> Reading the kiev thread got me interested and followed some links and saw 
> these. They -appear- to be much improved versions of the kiev 88 and the 
> mirror lockup looks like a nice feature. Anyone know anything about these 
> or own one? The price is higher than a base kiev 88 but seems to be much 
> cheaper than the modified kiev's from kiev USA. They also have their own 
> version that mates with hassy backs which might be nice. The tilt shift 45 
> looks interesting as well. I don't shoot that often and I'm not a pro so 
> durability isn't a big issue. I could never talk myself into spending the 
> $$$ for a hassy but this system looks interesting. TIA

>From personal experience: Quality is as volatile with Hartblei as
with any other (cheaper) Kiev around... They just seem to be 
unable to shed their nonchalance regarding crucial issues such as
shutter banding...

So, it's a hit-or-miss thing, and this applies to any Kiev I've 
seen. You might as well go for a cheaper offer or a dealer nearer
to you.

Hartmut

-- 
  Remove all numbers from email address to reply directly.


From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei?
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 

Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote:

> Reading the kiev thread got me interested and followed some links and saw
> these. 

This is the classical case of the silk purse and the sow's ear. Mind
you, this is a design which even the Swedes at H'blad themselves
couldn't tame.

If you're looking for an inexpensive entry into medium format, then get
a Kiev 60. Much less complex, no lens fitting issues, same picture
quality. As to the need for exchangeable backs, just think how many
rolls of film you could simply wind through in mid-roll for the
difference in price. If you must shoot colour and b/w alongside each
other, then buy a second body. They usually go for something like 100
dollars. 

More on the subject at the URL given below. 

Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: "eMeL" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei?
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:27:00 -0500

radiojohn [email protected]> wrote 
...
> I saw some footage of the Cosmonuats onboard MIR (or
> some earlier effort) and even THEY were using the Kiev 60 over the the
> more complex models.

Generally it is true that in real world choosing Kiev 60 over the 80 is
choosing a better construction and - at least potentially - a more reliable
camera.  And once can always try to find some P-six Schneider optics which
fits these bodies...

> Does that tell you something?

It tells ME absolutely nothing.  Knowing the Russian/Ukrainian mentality, it
was probably a specimen carefully hand-assembled from hand-picked parts, NOT
a stock model sold to you and me.  In real $$$ it probably cost the
equivalent of 2000-3000 hours to manufacture and assemble.  And the crew
probably had more than one on hand (a prudent thing to do with any
mechanical thing, by the way, not only with a Kiev camera...)

After all both the Russians (for the Tsar) and then the Soviets/Ukrainians
(for whomever...) used to paint the grass green to make a good impression
:-)

Michael


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: New kiev 60!
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 

I've been shooting MF for about 10 years and wanted to try something new. 
I've have a Rollei TLR's, a fuji rangefinder, had a baby graphic etc and 
knew what I "needed" out of a camera. Mainly was looking for something that 
could take a 50 and an 80, do closeup work and had a waist level finder.

Well after reading some advice here and elsewhere I decided to try a kiev 
60 instead of an 88. Went by Kiev camera (discovered it was only about two 
miles from my house!) and was given a choice of a couple of models. I 
decided to go with the "high end" all black newest mirror lock up model 
kit. It was $299. It came with a TTL prism, waist level finder and 80mm 
lens, a hood and a couple of filters. I went out today and shot a couple of 
rolls and I thought I'd post my impressions.

First with the TTL prism it is a fairly heavy camera. Not too heavy but not 
light either. Discovered a bunch of the weigh was the prism and installing 
the waist level finder lightened it up quite a bit. The prism also darkened 
the image and didn't seem to cover the whole ground glass. It's not bad, 
just IMHO it's MUCH nicer with the waist level finder. It has a good built 
in magnifier and has a really bright ground glass with a micro prism and 
split image focusing aid. The lens focus felt about right in tension and 
the controls are easy to use. I did test the TTL meter prism and it reads 
the same as my seconic digital incident meter.

While it has mirror lock, the mirror seemed very well dampened, but for 
landcapes why not fire it first. The shutter (a cloth type) seems quiet and 
smooth for one this large and doubt this will be any problem with camera 
shake. I shot two rolls of B&W and the spacing of the frames was even and 
nicely spaced. The inside of the mirror box has a few baffles and is all 
flat black so I don't think internal flare is going to be an issue. 

The advance doesn't have the solid feel that my fuji rangefinder does and 
time will tell how strong it really is. I think as long as I don't "crank 
it" too fast to the next frame, it will probably be OK. The front angled 
shutter button feels good and is in a nice place. My simple shutter speed 
test of changing speed and F stops hand in hand gave a roll of even 
exposures.

The lens looks sharp and seems to have good contrast but I haven't printed 
the negs yet so I'l reserve judgement on that. The best part is the zeiss 
glass that you can use on it that are known to be good performers.

I can't say enough about how nice the people at kiev camera were, gave a 
year warranty and seem like honest people. From what I've read on the net 
about them, this is who I'd get one from as their prices are MUCH better 
than the other people and they give the same warranty. For someone 
interested in a camera that works nice and can be added to later (lenses 
ext tubes etc), this is one to look at. The only thing would be if you 
needed a camera for flash sync work, the low flash sync speed could be a 
problem, but that's the case with most FP shutter med format camera's. As I 
said time will tell how durable this newer version is but given that a new 
body is so cheap, I'm not going to cry if it dies in a couple of year 
either.


-- 
 
  Stephe


From: "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: New kiev 60!
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 

Stephe,

Congrats!!!

I have found the Kiev world myself over the past two months. My Minolta
Maxxum 7 crashed and was sent into the shop. I went through withdrawals,
then I saw the Kiev 88 and fell in love. I bought it, but I then realized
that I had a old version, so I sold that an bought a K60 and a five
different Zeiss and Arsat lenses. All this for less than $1000. I am happier
than a pig in shit.

I got back my first six rolls two days ago and they were stunning. I can not
believe the quality of these shots. I have been shooting for about 18 years,
I think I am having more fun now than ever before.

I told the people in my camera club what I bought, and they laughted at me.
Then I showed them the pictures and the Zeiss lenses I had, and then they
cried.

I wish you luck and much happiness with you new camera. By the way I just
bought a new 88 from Michael at Kiev Camera in your neiborhood. In fact
Michael should be back today (Wednesday) from the Ukraine, go in and say hi.

By the way this is turning into a cult-camera. For an excellent bulletin
board go to Delphi and search for "Kiev Camera". This is an excellent source
of information, there are many people who have had Kievs and Pentacons for
many years on there and they will give you excellent advise about alot of
things.

Mark.

"Stephe Thayer" [email protected]> wrote 
> I've been shooting MF for about 10 years and wanted to try something new.
> I've have a Rollei TLR's, a fuji rangefinder, had a baby graphic etc and
> knew what I "needed" out of a camera. Mainly was looking for something that
> could take a 50 and an 80, do closeup work and had a waist level finder.
>
> Well after reading some advice here and elsewhere I decided to try a kiev
> 60 instead of an 88. Went by Kiev camera (discovered it was only about two
> miles from my house!) and was given a choice of a couple of models. I
> decided to go with the "high end" all black newest mirror lock up model
> kit. It was $299. It came with a TTL prism, waist level finder and 80mm
> lens, a hood and a couple of filters. I went out today and shot a couple of
> rolls and I thought I'd post my impressions.
>
> First with the TTL prism it is a fairly heavy camera. Not too heavy but not
> light either. Discovered a bunch of the weigh was the prism and installing
> the waist level finder lightened it up quite a bit. The prism also darkened
> the image and didn't seem to cover the whole ground glass. It's not bad,
> just IMHO it's MUCH nicer with the waist level finder. It has a good built
> in magnifier and has a really bright ground glass with a micro prism and
> split image focusing aid. The lens focus felt about right in tension and
> the controls are easy to use. I did test the TTL meter prism and it reads
> the same as my seconic digital incident meter.
>
> While it has mirror lock, the mirror seemed very well dampened, but for
> landcapes why not fire it first. The shutter (a cloth type) seems quiet and
> smooth for one this large and doubt this will be any problem with camera
> shake. I shot two rolls of B&W and the spacing of the frames was even and
> nicely spaced. The inside of the mirror box has a few baffles and is all
> flat black so I don't think internal flare is going to be an issue.
>
> The advance doesn't have the solid feel that my fuji rangefinder does and
> time will tell how strong it really is. I think as long as I don't "crank
> it" too fast to the next frame, it will probably be OK. The front angled
> shutter button feels good and is in a nice place. My simple shutter speed
> test of changing speed and F stops hand in hand gave a roll of even
> exposures.
>
> The lens looks sharp and seems to have good contrast but I haven't printed
> the negs yet so I'l reserve judgement on that. The best part is the zeiss
> glass that you can use on it that are known to be good performers.
>
> I can't say enough about how nice the people at kiev camera were, gave a
> year warranty and seem like honest people. From what I've read on the net
> about them, this is who I'd get one from as their prices are MUCH better
> than the other people and they give the same warranty. For someone
> interested in a camera that works nice and can be added to later (lenses
> ext tubes etc), this is one to look at. The only thing would be if you
> needed a camera for flash sync work, the low flash sync speed could be a
> problem, but that's the case with most FP shutter med format camera's. As I
> said time will tell how durable this newer version is but given that a new
> body is so cheap, I'm not going to cry if it dies in a couple of year
> either.
>
> --
>
>   Stephe
>


From: [email protected] (Evanjoe610)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 10 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: Ziess Lens Resolution

Brad,

I use the full set of CZJ lenses PLUS some of the Kiev 60 lenses on my Mamiya
645 and Exakta 66. Try to get the latest version of these lenses. meaning make
sure that they are MC (multi-coated) lenses.  If you buy into the Kiev system
prely as a backup camera to your Mamiya, go for the Kiev 60 (35mm on steroids,
or similar to Pentax 6 X 7, but in 6 X 6)  Second choice would be the newer
Kiev 88CM. Buty thrm from Mike Fourman of Kiev Camera in Atlanta, GA.



From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Ziess Lens Resolution
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 

Brad Swanson wrote:

> Can anyone in this group tell me where I could find the lens resolution
> specs for CZJ 120 and 180mm lenses for the pentacon six mount?
> 

No specs but the 180 is probably the sharpest of the lenses for a P-6 which 
is saying quite a bit :-) Wide open it's a good performer and from f4-f8 
it's outstanding! It's not a small lens being a 2.8 180 but it's one of the 
best lenses I've ever used on any format. Also it works well with the 
russian made MC arsat 1.4X converter which sells for aprox $80 new, again 
from f4-f8 it's great.

The "trick" with these seems to be getting a -really- good one. The sonnar 
seems to be more consistant in quality control (or less user damage, 
whatever makes some better than others) than some of the other CZJ designs 
but there is still lens to lens differences (as with any camera). I think 
the sonnar isn't as critical to alignment as the biometar or flektogon is.

 To better your chances, get a late MC version and be willing to be honest 
about the results it produces. You may have to buy and sell a couple to 
find an excelent performer but for what these sell for, I don't find that 
to be asking too much.  I've had to do the same with my OM 35mm lenses as 
well. Some of the OEM zuiko lenses I have owned just weren't real good, 
while another sample of the same lens was outstanding. 

Also the last year verions had either a 4 or 5 digit serial number and in 
my experience these seem to be consistantly good. These also comand the 
highest prices but still only cost around $250-$300 on ebay in like 
new/mint condition. The single coated zebra versions can be good but more 
of a chance of having to buy/sell/buy/sell to find a really good one. These 
can be found for as little as $150.

On the 120, I've read several people say the russian 'vega' f2.8 120mm is 
just as good if not better than the 120mm biometar and is much cheaper even 
as a new lens. These biometars multi coated go for as much as a 180 sonnar 
I feel because they aren't as plentiful in the MC version. The biometar is 
basically an east german planar type lens. I'm planning on just using my 
80mm + 1.4X converter instead of buying a 120. I'm real impressed with this 
converter!

On the issue of trying a kiev, get one of the 2001 all black MLU K-60's 
from mike at kiev camera. I got one early this fall and have been getting 
great results with it. 
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev portrait lens advice?
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> 
> 2.8/180 mm Zeiss Jena Sonnar
> One of the greatest lenses ever made and a legend in its own right. I
> use it for all kinds of photographic work, including a lot of 35 mm
> shooting through an M42 adaptor ring. Great quality but not to be
> recommended for long hand-held shooting sessions unless you've done
> competition-grade weightlifting, in recent years. Unfortunately, the
> tripod mount is a laugh. A little over 1/2 inch in diameter to support
> such a heavy lens and the camera.
> 

 On the tripod mount issue, this is a problem and I've found a great 
solution! Bogen/manfrotto makes what they call a "micro focusing plate" 
which solves the problem. With a touch of machining (i.e. drill a hole at 
the end opposite the slot to mount the camera) you can mount the camera on 
one end, and attach the sonnar in the middle of the slot, put a tripod hex 
plate on the bottom of the focusing plate, set the plate where the 
lens/camera combo is balanced and you have a rock solid platform! Also 
because of the slot it's easy to use the 1.4X converter with this same 
setup. Below is a link to the camers/lens mounted this way.

http://stephe_2.tripod.com/kiev/mount.jpg

Also this plate works great with the pentacon 6 bellows. Below is a link to 
the camera/bellows mounted on this plate with my "hacked" Olympus to P-6 
adapter mounting an 80mm f4 bellows macro lens.

http://stephe_2.tripod.com/kiev/macro.jpg

This plate is less than $80 and is well worth it. It's rated to hold 17 
pounds so even a K-60 with a sonnar isn't stressing it G>.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev portrait lens advice?
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 

Sherman Dunnam wrote:

> So now, here is my dilema.  In LF I am normally a landscape, nature
> photographer.  With the Kiev I am interested in trying some portraiture.
> With my 4x5 I use a 210mm for the few portraits I do.  Which lens would
> you recommend for portaiture with the Kiev?
> 
> I'm thinking 120mm Ziess, 150mm Kalinar (sp?) or 180mm Ziess.  

Don't rule out the 1.4X converter as a solution. Used with the excellent 
80mm arsat you lose 1 stop and get a "close" to perfect protrait length. 
The 180 sonnar is a fantastic performer but isn't very small or light i.e. 
tripod use is recomended. I've used the 1.4X converter quite a bit and in 
testing saw very little performance loss if any at all, it's multicoated 
and is cheap ($70). 

I've read the 150 is a good portrait lens but have no personal experience. 
I'm thinking the sonnar is probably TOO good for most portrait work and I 
don't want to know what an 86mm softar would cost! Probably more than a 
150mm kalinar. G> I have done some portrait work with the 80+1.4X and have 
been pleased.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 11 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: Kiev portrait lens advice?

All of the suggestions mentioned are good for portrait shooting.

While I like the 180MM Sonnar, I think it is a bit extreme.

I have an old British photo magazine which reviewed the 120MM Biometar (Zebra
striped version)
as a top portrait lens. Since you are shooting portraits you do not need the
crispness of a MC lens.
This is a great suggestion.

I would say this lens or the Arsat 120MM would be the most practical, or the
1.4X converter
used with your normal 80MM lens.

-Sam Sherman


From: Torsten Wiens [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev portrait lens advice?
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 

Sherman Dunnam schrieb:

> I'm thinking 120mm Ziess, 150mm Kalinar (sp?) or 180mm Ziess.  I understand
> there may be modifications necessary to my lens mount before I can use the
> 180.  I am thinking that abolute sharpness isn't usually desired for
> portraits so the Kiev 150 should do the trick.  Is the 120 too short?  The
> 180 too long?  The 150 not sharp enough?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'd throw in an Euro for the 2,8/180 CZJ Sonnar which is a great lens
- but quite a heavy one, as previously stated. If you're looking for a
good allrounder that's also usable for portraiture (possibly to
replace the 2,8/80 completely) , I'd recommend the 120 Biometar (you
know, there's *really* an issue about weight and size here).

Regards,
Torsten.



From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon Six advise
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 

Frankie wrote:

> Hello,
> I recently bought a Pentacon Six TL. I've heard that I should not let
> the film advance lever spring back by itself because that will wear out
> the film advance mechanism. I understand that this is true when  the
> lever has not completed the 220 deg. rotation. But what happens when it
> reaches the end? 

>The lever will return to the rest position
> automatically. 

This is what you are NOT supposed to do, at least don't LET it spring back 
on it's own. You don't need to hold it at the end of the travel but don't 
let it "flip" back under the spring pressure back to it's top, ride it 
back. I do this on any camera with a lever wind film advance anyway, no 
reason to let it slam back against the stop. Can't be good for any camera!

-- 
 
  Stephe



From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Film Flatness - Snip from Zeiss - Long Post
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 

S. Gordon wrote:


> 
> Yes, this white paper, which I believe is available from the website as
> a pdf file, is a couple of years old. Zeiss's own Kornelius J.
> Fleischer, discussing this issue in another forum, said:
> 

> KJF>
> KJF>  At Zeiss, we haved dived into the mechanical tolerance
> KJF>  systems of cameras, film guides, roller arrangements,
> KJF>  viewinders, focusing screens, slr mirrors, the effects
> KJF>  of temperature and humidity. They all contribute. We
> KJF>  found that film unflatness is one of the worst influence
> KJF>  factors of all. With newly developed equipment we
> KJF>  recently confirmed that 220 film offers better flatness
> KJF>  in magazines for Alpa, Contax 645, Hasselblad,
> KJF>  Rolleiflex, Mamiya. Even 220 shows far more unflatness
> KJF>  than we would like to accept in order to utilize the
> KJF>  enormous sharpness potential of the Zeiss Superachromat
> KJF>  lenses or the Biogon 38 or the Planar 100 and others.
> KJF>
> KJF>  In most cases where photographers say that these high
> KJF>  performance lenses are not better than usual ones, their
> KJF>  tests suffered from all kinds of sharpness drops,
> KJF>  unsufficient tripods, unsufficient technique and film
> KJF>  unflatness being the most influential ones.
> KJF>


So even zeiss is saying until you get film flatness resolved, there isn't 
going to be much use in buying the newest/greatest "super" lenses? I heard 
that the newest 'blad backs are using the same technology a K-60 does with 
a keyed supply spool mount with tension applied to help tension the film 
across the film gate. Sounds like to me something like this would make more 
difference that the change to a CFI lens would. 

I just got a kit from http://www.baierfoto.de/ that includes two pieces of 
felt like material for each side of the film gate to help increase film 
flatness even more. So far the shooting I've done wide open with my sonnar 
f2.8 180 have been good. I would think focus/film flatness issues would 
show up in that situation and I've seen none to speak of.

IMHO this seems to be the "issue" that affects sharpness/results more than 
minor changes in lens design. It's like trying to test enlarging lenses 
with a glassless negative carrier. Unless you can get the film flat, you 
won't see much if any difference.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Film Flatness - Snip from Zeiss - Long Post
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 

Stephe [email protected]> wrote:

> I just got a kit from http://www.baierfoto.de/ that includes two pieces of
> felt like material for each side of the film gate to help increase film
> flatness even more. 

These strips are there to eliminate flare caused by reflection on the
chrome-plated roller.

I haven't mounted them because (a) this type of reflection only occurs
under quite extreme circumstances and (b) they tend to gather dirt which
scratches the film.

Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 14 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an

All is solved to use Pentacon 6 lenses on Kiev 60 body.

Go to-       www.kievcamera.com          - contact Mike Fourman

He has an inexpensive adapter to use Kiev 88 lenses on Kiev 60 bodies-

AND - THE BIG BONUS -

With this comes a new locking ring that you put on your Kiev 60 which will
allow you to use Zeiss Jena (Pentacon 6) lenses on Kiev 60!!


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> Marv Soloff [email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> Sam - I'm missing something here - I have a standard Kiev 60 that takes
>> P6 mount (Pentacon, Exakta 66) lenses directly. I use my 180 Sonnar with
>> the Kiev 60 without an adapter. The adapter I have is a P6 to Mamiya645
>> that allows the P6 lenses to fit the Mamiya 645 but in manual mode only.
> 
> Well, there must be subtle differences. The 45 mm Mir only lets me
> rotate the Exakta 66's locking ring by about 15 degrees.
> 


As I posted elsewhere, it seems the index pin is where the difference lies. 
I've found slight filing of this pin makes any of them fit right. Try 
taking the pin out and see if (manually aligning it) doesn't make it work 
right. If so you then know this is why it won't mount right and may be 
cocking the lens on the mount!

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 14 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an

Ralf,

I have had Pentacon 6 cameras since the early 70s, Kiev 6C since 1985
and Kiev 60 since 1988. The Kiev mounts were never exactly the same as the
Pentacon 6 mounts and a good 20% of my lenses and various odd adapters and such
would not fit. With the new locking ring from Mike
Fourman, now all but a very few fit. 

The ones that do not fit are lenses I added Pentacon 6 mounts to
from odd mounts I acquired and various short extension tubes.

These will have to work just on the Pentacon 6 cameras as they also do not fit
the improved Kiev 88CM mount too.

As there is no true perfection in life I will make do with what works
with what.

- Sam Sherman



From: [email protected] (Ewa Anton)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002

   Pentacon 6 lenses should fit kiev 60 directly but oryginal Arsat goes
easily [I can turn the ring about 90 degres]. However when I put any of
German lenses I can  turn the ring only few milimeters and the ring
cannot "catch" the lens. Few months ago I notice warning about such
problem.       Jerzy Anton



From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an advice.
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 

Ewa Anton wrote:

>    I foud it's hard to put pentacon 6 lenses on Kiev 60 body but I'sure
> they are many Kiev owners , who solved this problem already. I'm ready
> to use file and to make any damage to camera body or to lenses in order
> t make my life easier. Any advice welcomed .            Jerzy Anton


OK people HERE is what is going on and it's simple to fix. The problem lies 
with the "index" pin/screw at the top part of the lenses mount. The 
placement/depth of this pin doesn't seem to be consistant between lens 
manufactures and the camera's. On a K-60 this pin will bottom out in the 
slot and keep the lens from mounting flush against the mount at the top. 
It's not the lock ring nor is it the lens mount itself. If you want to 
prove this yourself, remove the screw, align the lens manually and you'll 
find the lens fits like a glove and the lock ring turns all the way like 
it's supposed to. 

The fix if to file the side of the pin/screw flat until the lens will seat 
flush against the mount at the top so the lockring will turn all the way 
down. Only one SIDE needs to be filed down, not the top part of the screw. 
Ussually if you file it down (flat) till it's even with the treaded part, 
it will mount fine. 

Until you do this the lens is cocked on the mount and could affect image 
quality and possibly leak light.  All my russian lenses mount fine as did 
my 180 sonnar, but  both the CZJ 50mm's I tried needed this done as did a 
whole set of P-6 ext tubes and also a biometar 80mm.  Like I said, remove 
the index pin as a test and you'll find this IS the problem..
-- 
 
  Stephe

From: [email protected] (Ewa Anton)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 body. I need an advice.
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 

Thank you Stephe. I removed the index screw from the top of the lens
and the lens went deeply enough into Kiev 60 body. Then I could turn
easiely lock ring about 45 degrees; the lens is firmly placed. I will
screw in that pin/screw back and will file it vertically on the camera
body side. My problem is 100% solved. Thank you Stephe.       

Jerzy Anton


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.equipment.misc,rec.photo.misc
Subject: Re: KOWA SUPER 66: Is it possible to install an Accumat-D focus screen (was: Accumat-D screen in a K-60))
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:15:36 -0500

W. Catalano wrote:

> Has anyone personally or had a professional install a Hassy Accumat-D
> screen in there Kowa Super 66?
> 
> How hard is it to mate these two?
> 

The 'blad screen was encased in a metal frame (easily disassembled) that 
had a "normal" thickness/size screen and a small piece of clear glass 
sandwiched together. If you can tell me the exact size of the screen in 
your camera, I could tell you if it would work. I'd be shocked if it 
wouldn't. As I said with a little sanding of the edges, it dropped right in 
my kiev K-60.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: "eMeL" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: The best Kiev 60 dealer?
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 

Fredrik Nilsson [email protected]> wrote...
> Who is the best Kiev 60 dealer in Europe: Richard Wiese in Germany,
> Roskam Optics in the Netherlands or Hartblei in the Czech Republic?

IMO, because buying Kiev cameras is a crap shot, thus you'll need a dealer
who:
- will give you a year or longer warranty on the purchased equipment.
- will give you an ironclad 30 or more days money back guarantee should you
decide not to purchase the stuff after trying/testing the equipment.

Both conditions will add to the price, unfortunately.

You can also take a ferryboat to Poland and buy the Kiev stuff from "direct
importers" (i.e. smugglers) at 20-30% of the going "western" price.  This
way you can buy one of two spares of everything and still be ahead in terms
of price.
Just the other day I saw an add (private party, on a polish-language photo
USENET group) for a Kiev 88 with 3 backs, TTL prism, 3 lenses (80, 65 and
90), auto macro rings, 2x teleconverter,  filters, sunshades, cases, etc.
for PLN 930 (approx. $220.)  Compare this to the price that a "western"
dealer would charge for such a rig  :-)

Good shooting.
Michael



From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 opinions...
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 

JR [email protected]> wrote:

> I am thinking of grabbing one of these truly inexpensive MF cameras for
> some fun and portraits and learning...Any opinions on the camera, lenses
> and quality?

Frankly, I'm getting a little tired about arguing with a bunch of
cold-war fossiles on this newsgroup and I prefer to spend my time using
my Kiev rather than preaching to the deaf, but since you've been asking
so nicely:

I've had my current K60 for well over 3 years now and I've lost count on
the number of films I've pulled through it. Not one single failure,
missed picture, or other trouble. That doesn't mean I'd recommend one to
a wedding photographer but for us amateurs it's a great way of achieving
top-notch results for very little money.

There are a few good lenses in the Kiev (or rather Arsenal) range. The
original 80 mm is quite good and so is the astonishingly compact 2.8/120
mm. The 45 mm has terrible barrel distortion. The 30 mm super-wide angle
is razor-sharp and the greatest fun to be had with your socks on. The
tele lenses, on the other hand, are nothing to write home about. 

The Zeiss Jena lenses are really good with the sole exception of the 80
mm Biometar standard lens which isn't quite on par with the rest. The 50
mm, 120 and 180 mm lenses however are outstanding. Get the later MC
versions with all-black barrels.

The Schneider lenses originally made for the Exakta 66 are first rate
but rather expensive.
 
If you're serious about getting a K60 then buy it from one of the
established dealers like Foreman or Kaplan, but not from Kiev USA
because they're way too expensive. 

Buy one of the anti-flare kits sold on ebay or by Foto Baier and fit it
to the inside of the mirror box.

Everything else you'll need to know about the K60 plus a few essential
links on the subject as well as a bunch of pictures taken with this
camera can be found at my site under the URL given below.

If you have any further questions, you'll know how to find me.

Do let me know how you get on.

Cheers,
Ralf 

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 4 Aug. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: New kiev 60!
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 

Thom,

Michael at KievCamera helps to make this "Silly thing" a comparable MF photo
system. How many people do you know who have MF cameras have more than one
or two lenses? I have now seven (30mm fish, 50mm Zeiss, 80mm, 120mm Zeiss,
150mm Zeiss, 180mm Zeiss, 300mm Zeiss) very high quality lenses from Zeiss.

With the proper maintenance, adjustments, and upgrades the Kiev 60 or Kiev
88cm is a very qualified system with numerous lenses for less than
US$1800.00 that will last a long time.

The Kiev Camera purchased from Michael in Atlanta, Georga is anything but
"Silly".

Good Luck in your endevors.

Regards,
Mark Smith

"Thom" [email protected]> wrote...
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 01:31:57 GMT, "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Stephe,
> snip snip
>
> Even though I have an RB-67 I am getting the itch for one of these
> silly things.  I noticed that kievcamera.com has the K-60 set for
> $200.  Is that a decent source and reliable dealer.  The thing will be
> coming a long way (Australia) and I don't want to send anything back.
>
> THOM
>


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: P67 fisheye on Pentax 645
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 

CC wrote:

> I'm looking for a fisheye for my Pentax 645. I've been thinking about
> mounting the fisheye for the P67 (35mm) on my 645. But I don't know if I
> can retain all functions concerning focusing and aperture.
> Does anyone have any advice ?
> 

http://www.kievcamera.com/30mmf35.htm

Kievcamera has the designed for 6X6  arsat 30mm fisheye for less than $500 
that is specially modified for the pentax 645 and even retains exposure 
automation and uses no adapter. The one that doesn't retain exposure 
automation and uses an adapter is only $300. Check the site and/or call 
Mike, he is a SUPER nice guy to deal with. I've shot with this lens on my 
kiev-60 and it's a nice lens, well made and sharp. It's gotten good reviews 
by the photographic press as well. I don't think you'll find a better deal 
on a fisheye for any type of camera!
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying a Kiev 60 at  Kievcamera.com?
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 

allblood wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone purchased a Kiev 60 at kievcamera.com?  I would like to know
> how
> well (or bad) there camera is?  I have searched and compared with KievUSA
> and I find that the reviews from KievUSA are mixed (even they claimed they
> upgrade and fix the Russian Roulette...).  Also, the price difference
> between KievUSA and Kievcamera.com is substantial.  I do not expect a lot
> from a $300 camera.  However, I really would like to have a taste of how
> MF
> SLR feels and works.  I know I can spend less than a $1000 to get a used
> Hassy, but the lens line-up of kiev is simply too tempting....
> 
> 

I've been shooting med and large format for years and I too was "tempted" 
by the great prices and the avalible Zeiss optics for cheap. First I'd get 
a K-60 over a K-88 as it's a much simpler camera and has a flatter film 
plane than most med format camera's do. I bought one of the newest all 
black mirror lock up K-60's from Mike at kievcamera and it works 
flawlessly. I picked it up in person as he is real close to me and he is 
really a super nice guy. I've run about 8 rolls of film through it so 
far and it seems like a good camera. I really think these newer camera's 
with the cloth shutters are more reliable. Plus the ones that have mirror 
lock up have been disasembled and should be a little higher quality than 
the "plain" ones straight out of the factory.

As far as "expecting much", the 80mm arsat lens is every bit as sharp as 
the schneider lens on my rolleicord (or any of my other med format cameras 
including zeiss tessars etc) and focuses much closer. Plus being an SLR 
with lenses you can change makes it much more useful than a TLR. I didn't 
care for the prism and am using the waist level finder which makes the 
camera much lighter as well.

So far I've gotten a 30mm fisheye, a 50mm f4 zeiss, the 80 2.8 arsat and 
the MC 180mm 2.8 zeiss sonnar and have less than $1000 in everything! Mike 
has the same warranty as Kiev USA (1 year) so the way I see it, if I have 
to buy a new body every year for $200, that's less than what a CLA on a 
hassy system would be G> And don't think hassy's can't jam and need works 
too. Also with the hassy each lens has a shutter so that makes everything 
more $$$ including service. Go price a 50mm zeiss hassy lens and then see 
what a 50mm zeiss pentacon lens is going for. If daylight fill flash is 
something you'll need, then the lack of leaf shutters is a problem, but for 
me I like being able to use shuterless lenses including my 35mm macro stuff!


I think durability depends a lot on the user. If you are ROUGH on stuff, 
you probably shouldn't get one of these. It's probably easy to rip the guts 
out of the film advance if you try to wind it as fast and hard as you can, 
but if you're gentle and release the winder slowly back to its stop instead 
of letting it fly back, it will probably work for a long time. most people 
who complain about film spacing, don't know how to load the film right. The 
other thing is how much film do you shoot a year? I probably will only 
shoot 100 rolls a year though it so it stand a better chance than someone 
who shoots thousands of rolls a year. If you do shoot a lot, get a spare 
body, they are just about $200 bare, maybe less if you talk nice to Mike!

Sorry if this is so long but I think these have an undeserved bad 
reputation, at least the newer K-60's apear to be much improved, have great 
optics and are affordable **HOBBY** use cameras.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying a Kiev 60 at  Kievcamera.com?
Date: 30 Nov 2001 

In the past year and a half I've bought two camera bodies (a plain 88
and an 88CM... no 60, sorry), few lenses, and a bunch of accessories
from Mike Fourman at Kiev Camera, and I have nothing but good things
to say about him.  He is a good, honest guy and will do his best to
make sure you're happy with your camera.

Apparently, his cameras are checked out before he sells them --
basically, he tries to do the quality control work that the factory is
notoriously famous for ignoring.  But, he does not work on the way
they look which means you could still get misglued leatherette, oozing
glue, and that distinct cabbagey smell.

The Kiev 60 will handle similarly to an old 35mm SLR...  Just pay
particular attention to film loading (true for most MF cameras when
you're coming from 35mm) and you should be off to a good start.  If
the camera checks out, you can actually expect quite a bit from that
sub-$300 camera.  After all, once you have a working body, it's
largely the lens that matters (putting technique aside for a second
here).

For me as well, a lot of the attraction of Kievs is the wide selection
of lenses that are available for bargain basement prices when compared
with other MF brands' goods.  I've spent quite a bit more than I
intended to when I started down this road, but for about $1,600 I have
a 30mm, 45mm, 50mm, 65mm on the way, 80mm, 120mm, 150mm, 180mm, 250mm,
300mm, and will soon even a 500mm F5.6 mirror lens to use.  I could
never carry all of that stuff at one time, but it is a nice feeling to
have the right lens for just about any occasion when I am planning in
advance of a shoot...

I've almost given up on trying to "grow" my Bronica SQ system beyond a
fairly basic kit.  It's just too expensive... so instead I'll just
have fun with all the options I have open with my Kievs.  And, yes,
they can take nice photos! (^_^)

-Kevin


"allblood" [email protected]> wrote 
> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone purchased a Kiev 60 at kievcamera.com?  I would like to know how
> well (or bad) there camera is?  I have searched and compared with KievUSA
> and I find that the reviews from KievUSA are mixed (even they claimed they
> upgrade and fix the Russian Roulette...).  Also, the price difference
> between KievUSA and Kievcamera.com is substantial.  I do not expect a lot
> from a $300 camera.  However, I really would like to have a taste of how MF
> SLR feels and works.  I know I can spend less than a $1000 to get a used
> Hassy, but the lens line-up of kiev is simply too tempting....
> 
> Thanks,
> allblood


From: "eMeL" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying a Kiev 60 at  Kievcamera.com?
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 

Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote...
> ...
> if I have
> to buy a new body every year for $200, that's less than what a CLA on a
> hassy system would be G> And don't think hassy's can't jam and need works
> too.
> ...


Tempted by you I went trough my records and...

In 25 years of use of a Hassy 500 C + chrome 80 and 150 plus two non-A
magazines (purchased well used!) the total maintenance/repair bill was
$125.00 (all of which was the fee for initial checkup/adjustments.)
In 17 years of use (and I mean USE!) of a 500 C/M body, 4 A-backs and 3 (4
at times) *T lenses,  the total maintenance/repair bill was $690.00
In 3.5 years of use of Rolleiflex 6001, 6008i, 4 magazines, 4 lenses,
chargers, etc. the total repair/maintenance bill is zero.

If course this doesn't prove anything, but I'm the one G>ing now
:-)

Good shooting!
Michael



To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] Kiev-60 metering problem

Hi everyone

I recently bought a Kiev-60 and am trying to get it to work properly. 
So far I have adjusted the film spacing and added flocking to the 
interior. Now I am trying to calibrate the metering prism.

I found a very useful site (Kiev Kalibration) via Bob Monaghan's 
medium format pages which while being helpful on other aspects of 
Kiev problems, is not much help with the prism as my model is a 
different version to that being calibrated there.

Does anyone know how to calibrate Kiev prisms that have only one 
adjustable variable resistor? I would guess that I have to place the 
camera on a tripod facing a light, work out what the correct exposure 
for this distance should be, set the lens aperture and shutter speed 
to the correct settings then adjust the variable resistor until the 
meter shows the correct reading. Is this correct - and what sort of 
shutter speed/aperture combination should I be looking at?

As I use a hand-held meter most of the time, it will not be the end 
of the world if I cannot get the prism to meter accurately but it 
seems a waste to lug about such a heavy piece of glass that is only 
partially working. Thankfully some test rolls of film show that the 
shutter speeds are accurate enough for black and white but I have yet 
to put a slide film through the beast.

Best wishes
Stephen Pounder 



 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT - hello to the Rollei list
To: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 

I have an extensive collection of Pentacon 6, Praktisix, Kiev 60, Kiev 88
and Exakta 66. A total of about 15 bodies, and numerous lenses, from all
sources, from 30mm fisheye, to the 1000mm Zeiss mirror lens.

All the lenses I have fit very well on all my Kiev 88 cameras with P-6
mount. I have not yet tried the 1000mm lens on that body yet, but this is a
new lens for me. On some Kiev 88's the mirror lock up will not work with
some lenses (they are physically obstructing the mirror release switch.
Also, generation 1 Kiev 88 with P-6 mount (presumably not a factory
modification) will not work with some of the bigger lenses because the
release button is in the way (too close to the mount).

There is a German company that manufactures an adapter that will allow you
to use a Kiev prism on the Pentacon body. As with everything German, it is
well made and super expensive. Last year the price was over 100 bucks for
the adapter (over 200 DM).

The Kiev prisms, especially the newer ones, are pretty darn good. The Kiev
88 does not need adapters to use the Kiev 88 prism (duh) and Hasselblad
prisms. I have had no problems with either Ukrainian metered prisms and
like them a lot.

All the P-6 lenses will work with no problem on the Kiev 60 and 6-C
cameras. Unfortunately, last year when I spoke to a manager at the plant in
Kiev, they said the model 60 is out of production, as they cannot afford to
make both cameras. So they are concentrating on the Kiev 88 and making it
better. Now factory kits come with mirror lock-up and black shutters (both
metal and cloth) and with P-6 mount and the NT backs are really good, being
interchangeable with Hassy and having multiple exposure capabilities
(switch on the side of the magazine).

The only Kiev 88 with P-6 mount that I have had problems with came from
Kiev USA and that jerk who owns the company. He ripped me off of two bodies
(he said he lost them) and would not compensate me for them. Eventually we
settled on a replacement, but the Kiev 88 he sent me was a piece of sh*t. I
have never heard somebody lie so many times in a single phone conversation
as that guy. He must have thought I was born yesterday and did not know one
end of the camera from the other. Anyway, I will never send him any
business, and will gladly discourage anyone from dealing with his company.

Back to the issue here. You should have no problem using East German, West
German, Ukrainian lenses on your Kiev 88. The only exception to this rule
is if you have some of those transitional bodies (sorry, can't estimate
year or serial number range).

Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)



From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Exakta 66: any experiences?
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 

Manh Le [email protected]> wrote:

> I've just went through the Shutterburgs magazine (2001 Buyer Guide)
> and found that the Exarta 66 camera seems to support quite a large
> amount of lens available. 

I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll keep this short. Do email me if you
need further info.

The Exakty 66 has the normal Pentacon Six mount and hence supports all
lenses for the Pentacon Six, the Kiev 60 and those made especially for
the Exakta by Schneider of Kreuznach. 

Production of this camera has ceased in late 2000 but it appears that
stocks are still available.

This is a Pentacon Six with a few improvements on the most critical
points, i.e. transport, spacing, pressure plate. 

> I can see some draw back from this camera:
> no motor drive, no TTL flash (and/or metering), no interchangeable
> back, manual focus. However, the price seems to be reasonable. B&H
> lists it for 1,200.

For this type of camera, interchangeable backs are rather uncommon, and
so is AF for a 6x6. Is there a motor drive for the Pentax 67?

> Specifically I would like to know about ease of use, reliability,
> system accessories, and so on. 

Reliability is so-so, mostly due to its origin. Later versions (Mod. 2
and 3) had improvements made to the transport mechanism. 

> Also would to know if this camera
> would be a good choice for wedding. 

I have two Exaktas, I use them as an amateur and I'm quite happy with
them, But I would'nt recommend one to a wedding photographer, as I
understand that one of the most important features for this application
is absolute reliability and sadly the Exakta is lacking a little, in
this respect.

> It seems that two different
> models are offered one per film type(i.e. 120 and 220).

No, the pressure plate can be switeched between 120 or 220.

> Listed in the Shutterburgs magazine includes 50mm, 80mm, and 150mm
> Exakta 66 lens. Yet B&H seems to have the 80mm Schneider lens only.
> Is there any store that sells the other two lens?

There are even more. Have a look at my site and go to the Kiev 60 page
under 'Technical Topics'. There, you'll find what I hope is a complete
list of all lenses for this camera.

As to further accessories and a general description, follow my links
pointing to the Pentacon Six and the Dresden cameras.

Bobm's site also has some info on it.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 5 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.misc
Subject: Third Kievaholic Themed Online Exhibit
Date: 22 Jan 2002 

Hello everyone.

The third Kievaholic Themed Online Exhibit is now open.  If you'd like
to have a look, please visit http://kievaholic.com/

You might be surprised by what these cameras and lenses are capable
of. (^_^)

Best regards.

-Kevin


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying a Kiev 60 at  Kievcamera.com?
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 

Anthony Polson wrote:

> "allblood" [email protected]> wrote:
>>  However, I really would like to have a taste of how
>> MF
>> SLR feels and works.  I know I can spend less than a $1000 to get a used
>> Hassy, but the lens line-up of kiev is simply too tempting....
> 
> Hi allblood,
> 
> Personally, I would find the sub-$1000 Hasselblad infinitely more
> tempting than any $300 Kiev.  

Sure until you price a lens beyond the standard 80mm. I know three "hobby" 
shooters that have a hassy and they all have only the one 80mm lens cause 
they can't afford other lenses. For most people, they'd be better off with 
a rolleiflex than a hassy since the lens prices limit them to one lens 
anyway.
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Q. to Pentax 645N users w/ Kiev lens adapter
Date: 6 Dec 2001 

I got mine from Mike Fourman at Kievcamera.com.  It was only $25 if I
remember correctly.  Like with the K60-Mamiya 645 adapter, you lose
auto diaphragm.  Otherwise, it's pretty handy to have, especially if
you already have K60/P6 lenses to use.

-Kevin


"CC" [email protected]> wrote 
> "JCOhlsen" [email protected]> schreef...
> >
> > I am wondering if anyone here who uses the Pentax 645N has gotten and used
>  a
> > Kiev  lens adapter which allows the use of Kiev 6 lenses on the Pentax
>  645?
> >
> > What problems, if any, have you experienced?
> >
> > JC.
> 
> I'm still trying to find the adapter for P645. It's not easy to get one !



From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Q. to Pentax 645N users w/ Kiev lens adapter
Date: 6 Dec 2001 

Good question.

I ordered three adapters from Mike.  One is perfect...  The other two
have improperly threaded locking rings -- while the adapters
themselves will fit on my P645, none of my K60 or P6 lenses will go
onto the bad adapters.

Mike is a nice guy to deal with though, and he's exchanging the two
bad ones for me, no questions asked (it was a fairly recent purchase).
 The adapters were made in a former Soviet Union country and, like
many things from that part of the world, quality control is lacking. 
But when you get a good one, it can be a heck of a bargain.

The finish of the adapter itself is quite nice.  Infinity is right on
too.  No brand on it though.  I'm just hoping that the replacements
Mike sends will be okay...  perhaps I should have asked him to make
sure they fit properly when I made the original order.  Lesson
learned.

Good luck!

-Kevin


"CC" [email protected]> wrote 
> Are you happy with the quality of the adapter ? I've heard that a lot of
> adapters are very bad quality and don't fit correct. Is there a brand or so
> on it ?
> 
> "kevin_i" [email protected]> schreef 
> > I got mine from Mike Fourman at Kievcamera.com.  It was only $25 if I
> > remember correctly.  Like with the K60-Mamiya 645 adapter, you lose
> > auto diaphragm.  Otherwise, it's pretty handy to have, especially if
> > you already have K60/P6 lenses to use.
> >
> > -Kevin
> >
> >
> > "CC" [email protected]> wrote 
> > > "JCOhlsen" [email protected]> schreef 
> > > > I am wondering if anyone here who uses the Pentax 645N has gotten and
>  used
>  a
> > > > Kiev  lens adapter which allows the use of Kiev 6 lenses on the Pentax
>  645?
> > > >
> > > > What problems, if any, have you experienced?
> > > >
> > > > JC.
> > >
> > > I'm still trying to find the adapter for P645. It's not easy to get one
> !


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 

Glen Barrington wrote:

> Most people say to stay away from them, yet there is a hard core of
> enthusiasts who are very happy with their Kiev's, Lubitel's, etc.  I admit
> the prices are tempting.
> 
> To those who are happy with your Russian cameras, WHY are you happy?  What
> are you doing different?  Do you maintain them yourselves?  Are your
> expectations lower than others?  There are enough horror stories floating
> around that makes me certain that the quality standards are not up to
> Western standards.  Yet, you are content, some of you are even
> enthusiasts. What gives with that?
> 

Well I'll give you my experiences with my kiev-60. First I am mechanically 
inclined so simple "repairs" aren't a problem for me. Secondly I've always 
owned used camera's and most are real old ones so maybe I'm not so picky 
about how it operates?  So far it does have one "issue", some shutter 
banding at 1/1000, but how many med format camera's even have a 1/1000 
setting? I've just decided to only use 1/250 and lower to avoid any 
problems. I can give up that for the money I'm saving. Actually more like I 
can actually afford to get a useful set of tools with this system.

What I like are the KILLER zeiss lenses avalible for peanuts. Got a zeiss 
50mm f4 flektogon (written by many people to be as good as or better than a 
distagon) single coated version for $125 with perfect glass. A late 
multicoated version is about $250. To give an example, a red filter for 
this lens is almost what the lens cost! Then I got a 180mm f 2.8 zeiss 
sonar in the late multicoated version in MINT condition for $250. Go price 
zeiss glass for any other system. Then bought a 30mm f 3.5 fisheye new for 
$219 that is real sharp and contrasty. Also the 80mm Arsat is a nice lens. 
The list goes on on what you can get for these camera's for very little 
money.

The other advantage is it has a focal plane shutter so if you are handy, 
you can fabricate up mounts for all sorts of other lenses. I made a mount 
out of a K-60 ext tube and an OM teleconverter I gutted to use an 80mm f4 
macro lens from my OM system on it. Works great!

The way to get a "good one is buy from Mike at kievcamera.com. Great guy, 
stands behind his camera's and actually checks them out first so you got a 
good chance of getting a usable one. No it isn't a precision machined work 
of art. It feel crude and looks it as well. But it takes GREAT pictures and 
handles well (ergonomics). I love the waist level finder and the TTL prism 
meter's acurately as well. If it does break after the year warranty is up, 
a new body is only $200 (maybe less if you talk nice to mike) so why sweat 
it?

These aren' for everyone and I'm sure there are plenty of people who could 
break one in a week, just like there are people who can destroy a new car. 
Use some common sense and they are a good tool for the money.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (John Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
Subject: PRAHA CAMERA: Pentacons & Praktisixes at INCREDIBLE prices!
Date: 10 Dec 2001 

Introducing!

Praha Camera, the web's best and cheapest provider of Pentacon Six /
TL / Praktisix equipment, as well as lenses (also for Kiev 6* series),
prisms, etc.

An American-owned business located in the Czech Republic, Praha Camera
offers quality photographic equipment at excellent prices-- and our
packages are ALWAYS well packed and insured.

Come check out our package deals, and outrageous offers on 180mm Carl
Zeiss Jena lenses:

http://prahacamera.n3.net


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 

Robert Monaghan wrote:

> 
> But whether you get one in
> two older CZJ lenses needing alignment or reworking, or one in three (my
> own estimator), you need to factor in more time and $$ (mailing returns)
> and higher risk of a so-so lens, although the good ones can be very good
> indeed ;-)
> 


I think this is the key to kiev ownership. If you have no patience, want to 
just buy a camera and never "fool" with it, be promised fantastic optics 
without needing to test it, have no time to spend on testing the equipment, 
yes go buy something else. But in my case, to buy in a hassy 
what I got in a kiev/CZJ system that cost $1000 would be $10,000+ (for new 
stuff), so I can spend some time testing and piddling with it. If I made 
$150k a year, I probably wouldn't be using this stuff but then again it is 
kind of a chalenge!

The problem is with ANY used gear, you have no idea if it has been dropped 
or somehow otherwise damaged so the only way to avoid any problems is to 
buy new which for some of us isn't an option. Also the quality from one 
lens to another is suspect no matter WHO makes them. Like you said, some 
aren't as sharp as others and I'm planning on getter a MC 50mm flektogon to 
test against the one I have and sell the one I don't like. With $2000 
optics, that isn't an option for many people.

Sure there is a "risk" using this cheaper stuff, but it does seem odd how 
"upset" some people get when someone claims they can get fantastic results 
from this stuff with a little work. This might be part of why I enjoy using 
it as well? Being able to "beat the system" and get results this good from 
low end stuff? No this stuff isn't for everyone but the original poster 
asked why there are some 'hard core" kiev users and I was explaining why.
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 

eMeL wrote:

> The
> lenses made by the East Germans *may* be good, but because of a rather
> iffy aproach to quality control at the East German factory, you have an
> even
> chance of getting a piece of optical crap.  

This is true of any lens at the time when these were made but after trying 
several of these "optical crap" lenses, all the ones I have seem as sharp 
and contrasty as the lenses I have from the other side of the wall. I've 
yet to hear any kiev users compalin about the sharpness of the CZJ lenses. 
Have you any actual experience or are you repeating hassy user FOD? Of 
course they don't want to hear that a flektogon is better than a distagon 
after they paid 8+ times as much for the same focal length lens.


>You are not taking such
> chances with the optics made by the Carl Zeiss (Oberkochen) factory - all
> their lenses are second to none!

Oh BS. I've USED some CZO lenses that weren't "second to none" and some 
that were excelent made from this same time period. Just because it was 
made in the "free" germany instead of the "red" side doesn't mean it's 
perfect, unless you really are that brainwashed! WIth any older optics, 
testing is needed and if you get a poor example, sell it and try another.. 
To believe that EVERY CZO lens is perfect is being naive.

> 
> As for the confusion about the name "Zeiss" you may want to check the
> archive of this newsgroup for a fairly recent (long!) thread...
> 

I think you have it backwards G>

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 

Glen Barrington [email protected]> wrote:

> To those who are happy with your Russian cameras, WHY are you happy? 

Because I get great results for little money and after having bought a
K60, two Exakta 66, and an assortment of Jena lenses from 50 to 180 mm
plus a Mir 45 mm and a 2x converter as well as a heap of filters and
accessories, I still have lots of money left for.... film!! :)

Keeps me from having to post these embarassing "Just bought a H'blad,
now where can I get the cheapest film and processing?" messages. 

> What are you doing different?  

Nothing that I'm aware of. Well, maybe I shoot a little more and change
lenses more often because I can afford more film than a roll a week and
more than the mere standard lens. :)) 

> Do you maintain them yourselves?  

Maintain? You mean oil checks, tyre pressure, and all that ....? Naaaw,
not really.

> Are your expectations lower than others? 

No way!

> Yet, you are content, some of you are even enthusiasts.
> What gives with that?

Too busy shooting, scanning, and enjoying myself to spend time thinking
about such esoteric nonsense. Just returned with over 40 rolls from a
week at Mallorca, among which six rolls of Konica infrared. Amazing,
absolutely amazing. In itself a reason to get into MF. Give me a few
days to scan the stuff and put it on my site. I promise it'll knock your
socks off.

Cheers,
Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: Marv Soloff [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 

Q.G. de Bakker wrote:
> 
> Stephe Thayer wrote:
> 
> > > And another question: if you were offered a choice between
> > > your current Russian camera equipment, lenses and
> > > accessories included, and a similar set from, say,
> > > Hasselblad or Rollei, which one would you rather have?
> >
> > Same money or even trade?
> 
> Even trade.
> 
> > I'm not going to kid anyone, I'd take a hassy,
> > but that isn't reality. I can't/won't spend $10,000 on a camera system. By
> > using this stuff I can get cool things like a 30mm fisheye that I couldn't
> > afford, even in 35mm, otherwise. Have you priced a hassy 30mm fisheye? The
> > stuff works, the optics are VERY good and it is affordable. And yes it is
> > about the money and the tools I can get for the money I have to spend. BTW
> > to trade it would have to include EVERYTHING I'd ever want as I know I
> > couldn't afford any accessories later eitherG>
> 
> So it is money, money, and money again.
> I was hoping that someone could find anything to say in favor of these
> Russian cameras that was not money linked. But that appears to be
> impossible.

Ok, how 'bout pain -like when small parts drop off the camera during a
shoot and get lost?

I own a K60 bought two years ago in St. Petersburg (Russia) for little
money. I have run maybe 40 rolls of film through the K60. After
adjusting it per Russ Hippert's directions and painting out the mirror
box it works well. Still sounds like a meat grinder, but produces very
nice images. The meter in the prism is still useless and beyond hope.

In the final analysis, buying Russian/Ukranian photo equipment is like a
teenager buying a clapped out TransAm or Corvette and lavishing time and
effort on it until it works to their satisfaction. I think it is a
matter of personal temperment.

For people who enjoy working on their cameras, the K's are ideal. For
people who shrink in horror if you suggest taking a screwdriver to their
Hassy, well, then, best avoid the Russian iron.

I am not fond of my K60, but I use it and consider it good value for
money. When it ends its useful life, I'll have it stuffed and mounted
and put in my display case.

Regards,

Marv


From: "eMeL" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 

Ralf R. Radermacher [email protected]> wrote 
> I do so to
> keep things a little balanced in the interest of people who might
> otherwise be put off from buying a Kiev by eMeL's crusade.


I'm spending Christmas in Europe  and  - just to make you happy - have
decided to give Kiev a try (again, Gad...when will I learn..?) Sooo... I
asked my friends to buy me in advance of my arrival a nice Kiev 6 and a 30
mm fish-eye from a "trusted source" (total - $135, and that amount also
includes a bottle of very strong liquor) and we'll see.

Stay tuned. I know this is a bad idea but I really cannot justify a
Zeiss-made MF fish eye, so this endeavor might be both educational (that I'm
sure of...) and fun (a bit masochistic, perhaps, but still...)

Michael



From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 

Q.G. de Bakker wrote:

> 
> So it is money, money, and money again.
> I was hoping that someone could find anything to say in favor of these
> Russian cameras that was not money linked. But that appears to be
> impossible.


Well you've been given several reasons before which you ignored.

1) The flektogon has been rated as a better lens design than the distagon 
by several respected professionals

2) The 180 2.8 sonnar is a WONDERFUL portrait lens.

3) the 30mm fisheye is another winner lens for this system.

4) Focal plane shutter is an advantage for several reasons, not the least 
of which is being able to have faster glass. Makes "lens hacking" posible 
as well. 

5) A K-60 isn't going to jam like a hassy will if there is a problem with 
the back etc as it's a much simpler design.

6) a K-60 holds the film flatter than any removable back camera will.

7) a K-60 can be MUCH easier as an eye level camera or used with a waist 
level finder. Plus it's smaller and easier tha handle than a pentax 6X7.

8) Several different shift/tilt lenses avalible.

 And yes I can buy a whole system for what one hassy lens costs so I will 
take it places where a hassy user would never go. 


-- 
 
  Stephe


To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Pentacon Six/Exakta 66
From: Evan J Dong [email protected]>

Jan,

Have you looked into buying a used Fuji GA645i or any of their other
autofocus rangefinder?  Format is 645, not a true 6 x 6.  One drawback is
no option for other lenses.

I personally use my Exakta 66 when I travel oversea and have the need for
other lenses beside my 80mm.  I also have two Pentacon 6 TL as a backup,
but have yet to use them.

	 My assortment of lenses consists of :


	- 1.4x Teleconvertor MC
	- 30mm Arsat / Zodiak fisheye
	- 50mmF4.0  CZJ MC Flektogon
	- 60mmF3.5 Schnieder Curtagon
	- 80mmF2.8 Schnieder Xenotar
	- 120mmF2.8  CZJ Biometar
	-150mmF4.0 Schnieder Xenotar
	- 180mm F2.8 CZJ MC Sonnar
	- 300mmF4.0 CZJ MC Sonnar
	- 500mmF5.6 Meyer Optic MC

If you need further assistance, please contact me offline.


Evan Dong

Jan Decher [email protected]> writes:
> I am looking at a low cost 6x6 alternative to my SL 66 for a trip to 
> Italy
> next year.  I would really like to find one of those wonderful Super
> Ikonta folders but they seems to be hard to find or overpriced.
>   What about the East German Pentacon Six/Exakta SLR design.
>   They seem relatively cheap, easy to use and use a Zeiss Jena 
> Biometar.
>  Are these good travel cameras?  Which model is reliable/best?
> Jan

From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Why a K-60 is better for landscapes.
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 

Well I got to thinking about the question posed to me about trading my 
kiev-60 even for a blad system and I changed my mind. I'll keep my K-60!

I thought I'd turn this around. Why should I have bought a 500 blad instead 
of a kiev-60? 99% of my shooting is outdoor landscapes or closeup work and 
I looked at several cameras before I bought my K-60. I like the 6X6 format 
so wasn't interested in a 6X7 plus the pentax 6X7 is much heavier and 
larger. Also I wanted an SLR as I have a fuji 6X9 rangefinder and found it 
limiting plus no macro work can be done with one. 

Some people here seem to think these kievs are worthless cameras and blads 
are "IT". So what can "IT" or any other camera do that a K-60 can't? In 
fact I'm going to list the things "IT" can't do very well G>

Also I'm talking about a recent upgraded camera, or one that has been 
CLA'd and tested (either camera) I'm not talking about a straight from 
Russia $100 K-60 that was made 15 years ago (that's what those real cheap 
ones are), nor an old blad, that has been sitting around somewhere getting 
gummed up. Many people on the kiev "group" I've been reading have been 
using some for 10 years with no problems and any camera can break or jam so 
don't bother with the often claimed by blad users "reliability" rant, 
probably experience from the cheap old stock "gummed up" models, which a 
blad in the same shape wouldn't work well either. You can't compare a $100 
version of this camera to a blad when there are GOOD versions available.

Here was my list good and bad for an upgraded K-60

1) 1/30 flash sync. I never use a flash with my landscape photography so 
flash sync speed wasn't an issue for me. I've shot with a fuji rangefinder 
for 5 years and never have even tested to see if the flash sync even works!
2) Many of the lenses for a kiev are faster so the slower blad lenses 
wasn't something I wanted. Having the lenses "sweet spot" start one or two 
stops faster is a GOOD thing IMHO. 
3) I had many more lenses and focal lengths/speeds to choose from than blad 
makes. The only missing lens in the line is a good 38-40mm. That isn't a 
focal length many blad users own anyway and the 50's are at least equal if 
not in favor of the p-6's flektogon. If I end up needing a 40, I could have 
something fabricated later and shouldn't be too difficult for a machinist 
to do at least a manual stopdown version.....
4) Using a 35mm slr shaped K-60 at eye level felt much better than holding 
a brick up to my face did and I could still use a waist level finder if I 
want. 
5) The meter is easily user calibrated so if a brighter screen is installed 
later (like a maxwell) it's no problem to recalibrate the meter. I planned 
on installing one of these in either one so was concerned about later 
calibration issues.
6) It was easy to find a bellows and reverse ring for this camera and even 
enlarging/specialty macro lenses could be easily mounted to a body cap for 
"REAL" macro work. With a focal plane shutter, the shutter isn't an issue 
like it is with a blad 500 series. Are there any blad lenses that work well 
at 1:1 - 2:1 and beyond? I didn't see any made for this and the leaf 
shutter makes it all but impossible to hack up a real macro setup.
7) The film is held flatter and doesn't get distorted if left in the camera 
between shootings. Also it's a simple camera to load the film out in the 
field. 
8) Can't change film between rolls. I'm never shooting B&W and color at the 
same time (l would never compose/think the same for B&W and for color) so I 
didn't see the point in having a back the changes for my type of shooting. 
Maybe for some people this is important? I thought about it a bunch and 
decided this just wasn't very important.
9) It's easier to carry a K-60 around with a neck strap shooting handheld 
intown stuff, I do this quite a bit. Plus you can just smack someone with 
it if they try to take it from you. G>


Here was my list for a blad


1) Modern glass available. Better coatings and less flare problems. I 
normally use hoods and avoid flare prone scenes from using older single 
coated lenses in the past so decided this wasn't that important to me. Most 
p-6 mount lenses are available as multicoated anyway, just not as good a 
coating as the modern hassy stuff.
2) Interchangeable backs. Again I decided this would be a nice feature but 
it make the camera harder to handle and more complex.
3) Easier to find lenses to rent to try them out. There is no where to try 
the pentacon style lenses without buying them first. Oh well.
4) Flash sync at any speed. If I was doing more flash work, this might have 
been important. For landscape use this isn't a plus except if a shutter 
dies in one lens, the other might still be OK.
5) Able to shoot more rolls between service. I would like to have had the 
option of a camera in this "K-60" style that was proven more reliable/less 
quirky but I liked the way it handles so "agreed" to deal with it's 
possible quirkyness. The earlier pentacon's were as bad in this regard or 
so I read.
6) Ability to shoot Polaroid proofs. This would be nice but then again I 
though about having to carry around a back for this and since it would be 
mostly for exposure proofing (the reason I use one of the "pack backs" on 
my 4X5) I figured I could just bracket a little more.

Maybe if I shot with flash more, was REAL into the zone system with B&W or 
did weddings and needed backs preloaded etc I could see these camera's as 
being useful tools -for me-. Also as I'm not a pro, it would be years 
before either camera had enough film run through them to be an issue. For 
my landscape photography needs a blad looked like another "two shelves 
where none were needed", having a shutter in every slower lens (making the 
total system much heavier having redundant shutters) and a convoluted film 
path back that is harder to load, could jam and cause a light leak. Even 
the F series has many of these same issues with them also being harder to 
find lenses for. The pluses for the hassy were outweighed by the pluses for 
the kiev for my type of use, even factoring in reliability. I am planning 
on getting another body for a backup on longer trips.


 From my research before my purchase, the K-60 looked easier to 
use/carry/deal with doing landscape photography. I can't see any advantage 
to a blad or really any other SLR 6X6 or 6X4.5 on the market for this type 
of use. Even if I end up spending a bunch of money to some specialty repair 
place to "Fix" either a K-60 or a pentacon-6 into a -totally reliable- 
camera, I'd still rather have this over anything else I've seen. Might try 
one of the hartblei upgraded versions for my backup. Supposedly they 
replace the slow speed gear train and rework the shutter with a better 
brake. 

So you hard core hassy guys, what IS the advantage for landscape use if 
there is one?
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: "eMeL" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why a K-60 is better for landscapes.
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 

Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote...
> ...
>
> So you hard core hassy guys, what IS the advantage for landscape use if
> there is one?

One has a much greater chance of returning with technically good pictures
with a camera other than Kiev (for instance with Blad, Rollei...) because:
1.  Shutters on (Blads, Rolleis...) are seldom inaccurate
2.  Aperture rings on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom fall off
3.  Light seldom leaks into (Blads, Rolleis...)
4.  (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom have film spacing problems
5.  Small metal and plastic parts seldom fall off on (Blads, Rolleis...)
6.  Lenses for (Blads, Rolleis...) are QCd, tested, retested and then tested
again before leaving the factory, so chances of getting a brand-new dud are
rather slim
7.  Film transport mechanism on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom disintegrates
8.  (Blads, Rolleis...) bodies seldom require flocking
9.  Lenses on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom flare or have coating problems
10.  One can actually purchase factory lens shades for (Blads, Rolleis...)
11.  Light meters on (Blads, Rolleis...) are seldom inaccurate
12.  Viewfinders on (Blads, Rolleis...) are many and of great variety
13.  Lens elements seldom come lose on (Blads, Rolleis...)
14.  etc.

In a nutshell - (Blads, Rolleis...) are better mechanically, better
optically, have more options and have a better reliability record than
Kievs.  You like Kiev - peachy!  In my book it is a glorified piece of junk
better suited for mechanical - not photo - hobbyists.

:-)


Note to Ralf R. Radermacher:  Should you feel an urge to quote this post -
quote it in extenso.

Michael



From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why a K-60 is better for landscapes.
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 

eMeL wrote:

> Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote...
>> ...
>>
>> So you hard core hassy guys, what IS the advantage for landscape use if
>> there is one?
> 
> One has a much greater chance of returning with technically good pictures
> with a camera other than Kiev (for instance with Blad, Rollei...) because:
> 1.  Shutters on (Blads, Rolleis...) are seldom inaccurate

Start of the claims of unreliability

> 2.  Aperture rings on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom fall off

A  lame claim of unreliability.

> 3.  Light seldom leaks into (Blads, Rolleis...)

I've read more than a few people talking about light traps leaking on blad 
mags and leaks between the backs and the bodies. A K-60 has no place to 
leak light. A really lame claim of unreliability. A blad is MUCH more 
likely to have a light leak.

> 4.  (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom have film spacing problems

More claims of unreliability. Properly loaded this doesn't happen. Ussually 
the people who have this problem are new to med format and are clueless on 
how to load a camera. Wad the film on the takeup spool and film spacing 
will be a problem. If the camera has good spacing it isn't likely to just 
start having this problem out of the blue.


> 5.  Small metal and plastic parts seldom fall off on (Blads, Rolleis...)

More lame claims of unreliability.

> 6.  Lenses for (Blads, Rolleis...) are QCd, tested, retested and then
> tested again before leaving the factory, so chances of getting a brand-new
> dud are rather slim

OK -MAYBE- so but once checked (which anyone should do before shooting in 
the field with a new lens) how does pre purchase QC help anything? So far 
all the lenses I've bought are tack sharp. Another lame claim of 
unreliability.

> 7.  Film transport mechanism on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom disintegrates

More claims of unreliability. This has never been a K-60 problem.

> 8.  (Blads, Rolleis...) bodies seldom require flocking

 It's a known issue with the cheap models and the upgraded camera I bought 
came already flocked. Again like testing the lens when it's purchaced, this 
doesn't hinder its use in the field. 

> 9.  Lenses on (Blads, Rolleis...) seldom flare or have coating problems

"Coating problems"? More claims of unreliability.

> 10.  One can actually purchase factory lens shades for (Blads, Rolleis...)

So far all the lenses I've bought -came- with shades made for the lens. If 
they didn't it's easy enough to get them on e-bay. Or buy a new lens that 
has one (all new ones do). 

> 11.  Light meters on (Blads, Rolleis...) are seldom inaccurate

More claims of unreliability.

> 12.  Viewfinders on (Blads, Rolleis...) are many and of great variety

What more do you need than a waist level and a prism? How many do they 
actually have? 4?

> 13.  Lens elements seldom come lose on (Blads, Rolleis...)

More claims of unreliability.


> 14.  etc.

etc as in? You making up more reliability issues that don't exist?


> 
> In a nutshell - (Blads, Rolleis...) are better mechanically

Possible. Since I can buy 10 K-60 bodies for what one CHEAP blad one costs, 
I can live with that. But again I asked you to NOT site reliability as a 
reason but explain why the system would be better. So far you haven't.

> better optically

Given the FACT a K-60 can hold the film 
flatter, that is VERY questionable at best.

> have more options 

Such as? The kiev has a MUCH larger selection of lenses and focal lengths, 
are you sugesting having a couple of extra types of viewfinders is more 
important than lens selection? And that having a 45 and a 90 finder is 
better than having a 180 f2.8 MC zeiss lens in the lineup to use? I doubt 
you'll see the difference in the finders in the finished print. Not to 
mention the lack of any REAL macro system in their lineup and no way to 
hack one up.

>and have a better reliability record than
> Kievs. 

Again all you seem to be able to find/harp on is "They are more reliable" 
which doesn't seem to be this huge issue you make it to be with the newer 
upgraded K-60. I know several people on our list that have used them for 
10+years with no repairs. Since we are leaving money out of this, I could 
have one rebuilt to "rock solid" specs so as I said in my original post, 
leave reliability out and explain why the -SYSTEM- would work better for a 
landscape photographer, if you can which I doubt you'll be able to.

>You like Kiev - peachy!  In my book it is a glorified piece of
> junk better suited for mechanical - not photo - hobbyists.
> 


Well just as ya'll asked "Leave the money out of it, why are they better?", 
I asked you to leave the "reliability" out of it (mainly because I question 
that they aren't reliable) and explain why the blad camera system is so 
much better. You didn't seem to be able to convince me of anything that 
makes them better for landscape use besides your opinion that -upgraded- 
kievs' aren't reliable. Oh yea there is one or two extra finders avalible. 
That makes up for all the short comings I stated in my post!

Now once again, leaving out your only arguement about your believed 
reliability issue, which from what I've seen and read isn't much of a 
problem with the upgraded K-60 anyway, why would a 500 blad system be a 
better landscape/street shooting/macro camera than a K-60 system? 
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Third Kievaholic Themed Online Exhibit
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 

eMeL wrote:

> Stephe [email protected]> wrote...
>> eMeL wrote:
>>
>>  Now... Kiev Camera (stateside) wants $700 for the
>> > same set,  350% more than I paid...nice profit, uh?
>>
>> You don't get it. it's not the "same set". The ones he is selling have
> been
>> CLA'd by hartblei and had MLU added, or at least the one I would buy has
> 
> 
> Yes, I do get it... 350% profit for such junk sounds obscene to me.  

Yes, what you wasted your money on probably is junk or will be soon.

>If
> you are lucky to live/visit Europe, and have the guts to shop around, you
> can
> get three bodies for the   price charged by Kievcamera for a single one.

Sure and they have no lube to speak of inside, need to have the mirror box 
flocked, some have shutter banding and frame overlap problems etc. Did 
someone check the film spacing/shutter speeds/banding before it was sold to 
you? What sort of warranty did you get? Since you are so convinced these 
are "junk", to buy one with no warranty or check out seems like a bad idea 
unless someone was hoping to get a bad one for some reason. 

I know, I could have bought one just like you did for the same price direct 
from russia on ebay but knew there would be a big risk, it wouldn't be as 
good and would have no real warranty to save $200. In the price of a whole 
system, $200 more to get a warranty and a reliable body isn't much to pay. 
That is why EVERY kiev user recomends NOT buying one this cheapo way if you 
actually plan on using it much.

The consensus seems to be if it works well for six month of fairly heavy 
use, you've got a good one and these tend to last for a long time. For $300 
you can buy one that has been CLA'd, has mirror lock, which is a good idea 
on any camera with this large a mirror and a year warranty. If you were 
talking about 350% profit on THE SAME THING, and the difference was 
thousands of dollars, I could see your point. Were talking about $200 more 
for something that is a much better product and has a year warranty in the 
USA.

> And no, the MLU is not added to all Kievs sold by "KievCamera".   (See
> their web page.)

Have you talked to Mike? All he plans to sell anymore are these upgraded MLU versions 
as even he got tired of fooling with the kind you just bought. But then 
even the ones without MLU have been checked out and have the mirror box 
flocked before they are sold and have a year warranty. Same with the K-88, 
all he plans to stock in the future is the latest K88CM. He is working with 
the factory to get improvements made with each shipment and they 
continually are getting better. The one you buy at a flee market in eastern 
europe that is several years old is NOT the same camera you'll get from 
kievcamera today. 

And if you think his markup is high, check out the other kiev importers 
like kiev USA! And so far everything I've bought from him was about 20% 
less than the prices on his website. 

Whatever happens with these dirt cheap ones you bought from europe isn't a 
true reflection on what would happen with one bought today from a reputable 
dealer here. I'd NEVER recomend someone doing what you did and I know 
you've read many people warn other people about not doing this since you 
read and respond to every kiev thread on this group.

BTW mine didn't smell like cabbage so that might tell you something about 
how old yours are and where it has been stored.  G>


-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Third Kievaholic Themed Online Exhibit
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> eMeL [email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> The bodies were made in 2001
> 
> Hold on... Anyone able to confirm that they're making 60's again, at the
> Arsenal factory?
>

>From what I've heard from reliable sources is they stopped 
production in 1996 (were over stocked and decided to sell what they had 
instead of making any more and concentrate on making other cameras) and 
started again in 2000. I've never heard of any being made between 1996 and 
2000.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why a K-60 is better for landscapes.
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 

I used to work in a large camera store in California while attending school.
I saved a purchased a  new 501CM and with the standard 80mm lens.

I had more problems with the film transfer on these backs with overlap. I
had light leaks that cost me an arm and a leg to fix. AND I WAS A DEALER.

I eventually sold it a bought a used Honda CVCC, it was much more reliable.

That was just a statistic.

As a dealer I dealt with many Hassys for repair, and they covered the whole
spectrum broken film cranks, to shutter timing to light leaks. Hassys are
not impervious to problems, sure they have a good QA area but they will
break down. If maintained CLA'd like other camera to include the KIEV 60 and
88 they will function as expected.

I now own a Kiev 60 and 88CM, as well as a Minolta 7, Zorki 4, FED5 and
Nikon 3. My Kievs have worked as expected under some pretty stressful
situations in bad weather. I also have a large variety of Zeiss Jena MC
lenses as well as Arsenal lenses. Remember the Soviets and Russians had some
incredible engineers who created some excellent optiks.

By only Beef with Hasselblad and some of there users is that a person should
not have to spend incredible amounts of money to enjoy a very simple
science. Some hassy owners (and I know a bunch) feel they have to justify
there camera all the time because the amount of money they spent on it. I
live in Fairfield county Connecticut, a very affluent part of the U.S., the
houses in my neiborhood run over $1 million dollars each. These people can
afford a hassy because the feel they are buying the best. I feel they have
been taken for a ride. There are much better cameras out their that are
cheaper and more expensive. I feel that Alpa and Rollei are those.

A Kiev camera directly from Arsenal can not compete with Hassy, but an
upgraded one I would put against a Hassy any day of the week. I have won
prizes on my camera club with a Kiev against many hassy photogs. I will be
sending those pictures on the national and international competitions in the
B&W catagory.

I see Stephe's point about landscape photography. A Kiev can hold its own
against any MF camera on the market. It can use the world famous Zeiss and
Schneider lenses which have been proven winners time and time again.

We can go back and forth about who's camera is better, each has its place.
But as an advanced amateur, which most of us on this forum are we need to
keep it all in perspective. I can afford to get any Hassy and some lenses
and pay $15k for it. But why???? If there is additional value it is
INCREMENTAL AT BEST. So why not spend $15c and get a camera body or two and
a spectrum of Zeiss Jena, Schneider or Arsenal lenses. Whats the big deal.

Besides If there was a difference in the photo output all you have to do is
scan it on a $100 scanner and make changes on another $100 software package.
Who would know. Can anyone here tell me if they can tell by looking a
picture what camera is being used??? If they can...... well.... more power
to you.


Thats my $.02 for the evening. Kievs and Hassy's can live in harmony.

By the way, Hasselblad can use your money now...They are in some financial
straits.

Mark.


"eMeL" [email protected]> wrote...
> Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote...
> > > 1.  Shutters on (Blads, Rolleis...) are seldom inaccurate
> >
> > Start of the claims of unreliability
>
> Really???
> You are so perceptive...How do you do that..?
>
>  :-)
>
>
> I used to have a little British 4 wheel vehicle-like apparatus called MG.
> Note that I'm not calling it a car because it was not a car but a constant
> project!  It was an automotive tour de force of crappy design and
> engineering!  I'd *never* drive it when I *really* had to be somewhere on
> time (say, catch a flight...)  I'd take it on a (dry and sunny...) Sunday
> stroll...top down...radio playing some List or Deep Purple...oil oozing
> through the gaskets...Nirvana!
>
> Same with Kiev cameras...
> :-)
>
>
> Michael


From: "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 

Michael,

You sound angry.... Tried to refinance the house to buy one of those "West"
Zeiss lenses and got denied????

I will give anyone a $100 if they can look at a photo of Zeiss Jena and a
Zeiss "West Germany" lens. You can not tell the difference. I know I have
had them both. I use to sell Hassys in a very large (13k sq/ft ) camera
store.

If there is a difference and I am not say there is, it is so minute you
would not know. The engineering in the "West" does not justify its cost. If
the "west" lenses are better the value is INCREMENTAL or in other words NOT
WORTH IT. Besides if they were inferior I could scan it into photoshop and
make it better, and no one would ever know the difference.

Additionally, the Russian Kiev camera can also use Schneider Lenses with
many professionals feel are much better than Zeiss Lenses. If you do not
know Schneider I think you should do some homework then.

An upgraded Kiev camera using Zeiss, Arsenal, or Schneider Lenses is just as
good as any hassy on the street. And the biggest question I ask people is :
When you look at a picture, can you tell what camera with what lens took
that photo.

I am a Stock portfolio manager, I manage a $600 million dollar fund. And I
can tell you one thing, it is not what you make.... its what you keep. There
is no sence in paying $15K for a Hassy and a few lenses, when you can get
the same output by spending $1500 on two bodies and five Zeiss lenses.

Nothing is the perfect system. Sometimes when you spend alot of money on
something you feel it is the absolute best there is. Caveat Emptor!!!!

Good luck,

Mark.



"eMeL" [email protected]> wrote...
> Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote...
> > ...
> > What I like are the KILLER zeiss lenses avalible for peanuts. Got a
zeiss
> > 50mm f4 flektogon (written by many people to be as good as or better
than
> a
> > distagon) single coated version for $125 with perfect glass. A late
> > multicoated version is about $250. To give an example, a red filter for
> > this lens is almost what the lens cost! Then I got a 180mm f 2.8 zeiss
> > sonar in the late multicoated version in MINT condition for $250.
> > Go price  zeiss glass for any other system.
> > ...
>
> This is a "tad" misleading...
> Both Flektogon and Sonnar lenses were made by the East German "zeiss",
> namely so-called "Carl Zeiss Jena."  Then - when these lenses were made -
> the "real" Zeiss factory was located in Oberkochen, West Germany.  The
> lenses made by the East Germans *may* be good, but because of a rather
iffy
> aproach to quality control at the East German factory, you have an even
> chance of getting a piece of optical crap.  You are not taking such
chances
> with the optics made by the Carl Zeiss (Oberkochen) factory - all their
> lenses are second to none!
>
> As for the confusion about the name "Zeiss" you may want to check the
> archive of this newsgroup for a fairly recent (long!) thread...
>
> Michael


From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why a K-60 is better for landscapes.
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 

Q.G. de Bakker wrote:

> 
> It matters to me because equipment that needs to be reworked before it can
> be used at all does not install a lot of trust.
> Wrong? Maybe, but it certainly wants some convincing to put right.
> 
>

Something you might find interesting, EVERY car you've ever bought required 
these same sort of adjustments before you took delivery. I've worked at 
several different car dealships and some of the most revered cars in the 
world as far as reliability come from the factory sadly out of tune and 
needing all sorts of adjustments, BMW and mercedes are some of the worst. 
Many of their models required the cyclinder head to be retorqued (the 
mechanics found from exprience they weren't torqued right and would shortly 
blow a gasket if this wasn't done), valves adjusted and CO set before they 
could even start getting the rest of the running "bugs" sorted out. Once 
corrected these cars would perfom flawlessly for many miles. So by your 
logic because these need "fine tuning" by the dealers before delivery, they 
too are unreliable junk? Or is it only russian camera's this "slam" applies 
to as your contradictory coments in the lens thread seems to point out?


> 
> Sure. But for how long. I'm sorry, but my experience with tools that need
> to be "bend into working order" is not good. It does not promise a lot for
> the future. So it does matter.

As I posted earlier many people using these "upgraded" or CLA'd K-60's have 
been using them for 10+ years with no other service needed. Given they are 
still 1/10 of the price of a blad after this "pre-delivery inspection" has 
been done, I don't see why this is such a big deal. You can buy an 
"untuned" version for $120 or a tuned one for $300. 

And again you can't give me one single reason why a blad system makes a 
better landscape camera other than your "idea" they are unreliable with no 
personal experience whatsoever to base this on.

-- 
 
  Stephe


From: Marv Soloff [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: web page of Arsenal
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 

SARABANDE wrote:
> 
> Is anyone knows the official webs of Arsenal?
> The manaufacture of Kiev 88 camera.
> Thanks
> 
> Isaac

As far as I know, Zavod Arsenal does not have a general website open to
the public.  If you need to contact them, try here:

Zavod Arsenal:

Moshovskaya Str 8

Kiev 252010 

Ukraine.

Fax:007 044 290 2295

Better if you speak Russian.

Regards,

Marv



From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Accumat-D screen in a K-60
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 

Well today was the first day I've been able to use my K-60 since I 
installed this newest type 'blad screen. I got one with no focusing aides 
and the cross hairs on each side of center. It was simple to install, seven 
screws from the top, remove the blad screen from it's metal holder, sand 
about 1/32" from 2 edges and it drops in place. Focus didn't change (I 
checked it after instalation) as it's the exact same thickness as the stock 
kiev screen. It makes the prism read 1 stop off but that is easily adjusted 
on the kiev prism.
 
I decided to do some portraits of my basset hounds so took them outside and 
set up a tripod with my MC Zeiss Jenna180mm F/2.8 lens/shade on the camera. 
I use a bogen microfocusing plate mounted between the camera and lens mount 
to get it balanced perfectly on the tripod and give it extra support. 
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/mount1.jpg  For this low level shooting, 
I used the waist level finder instead of the prism. What a joy the whole 
"system" is now! The screen makes focusing simple and you can tell exactly 
what is in focus easily, unlike trying to line up a split image (on a dogs 
face?) or trying to judge focus with a micro prism. I could tell exactly 
the point on their nose that was in sharp focus by how sharp the hairs 
were. Also I tried shooting with the lens set on manual and this screen is 
so bright even shooting viewing at f8-f11 it was easy to see everything in 
the finder, what the DOF would be all the way to the corners and also still 
see where the sharpest focus point was. 

To give you an idea of the shooting conditions, it was behind my house and 
the sun had already moved to in front of the house but it was a REAL 
overcast day so the light was well diffused, perfect for portarit shooting. 
But also was far from being brightly lit as with the meter set at 400asa it 
wanted f/4 @ 1/250 yet still the image in the finder was easly visible even 
manually stopped down to f16. Anyone concerned about using DOF preview with 
THIS screen has nothing to worry about, it's much better than the stock 
ground glass type screen for this purpose.

 I'm so happy to be rid of the central focusing aides as now I can 
concentrate on focusing instead of trying to look around this stuff and 
fighting with a split image focusing aide.  Being able to see the focus 
plane is the main reason I like SLR type cameras. I still haven't shot with 
the 50mm with this screen yet so I can't say what that will be like but if 
it is ANYTHING like using this screen with the 180mm sonnar is, it will be 
a huge winner! Yes this screen isn't real cheap (I got it 
though a friend who bought a dozen for $150) but it's well worth the 
investment. Probably would be a great investment for anyone using ANY SLR 
that has an older type of screen in it.
-- 
 
  Stephe


From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Accumat-D screen in a K-60
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 

Stephe Thayer [email protected]> wrote:

> Well today was the first day I've been able to use my K-60 since I 
> installed this newest type 'blad screen. 

Quite interesting. For those who want to have a brighter viewfinder
image and still keep the focussing aids, the Rollei 6008 screen can
easily be adapted, as well.

I have one in each of my two Exaktas and the K60. Price about 100 USD
with mounting and adjustment done by Pentacon in Dresden.

Ralf

-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses


From: "Mark Smith" [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Accumat-D screen in a K-60
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 

Hi Stephe,

I just put my new 'blad' focus screen in my 88cm. Its wonderful.I took it
out for a spin with six different lenses and four rolls of film.This screen
makes a whole world of difference.

I was trying out my Zeiss Jena 65mm/f2.8 lens with some IR film, and a BIG
95mm #29 Red filter. It all handled well, I can not wait to see the photos.
I have never shot soo much film in my life. I just ordered a whole bunch of
DarkRoom stuff just so I can process faster than the pro shop down the
block.

I am ordering another K60 (645) from Mikhail next week. I like the 6x6 stuff
(Both 88CM and 60) but I want the 6x45 for more portrait stuff. I have
already been tasked by some friends to do some Holiday Portraits for them. I
showed them some photos with my CZJ 120MC, Kalyinar 150 and CZJ 180, they
loved the quality. So, I will be burning some Reala 100 over the next two
weeks.

I am glad to see that you have been fighting the Kiev Fight on the
newsgroup, I too have tried to quell some of the dis-information. But, there
are some who will listen (like me Brother, who is getting a K60 for
Christmas) and others who won't. I am glad to see that you have joined our
ranks and persuiting the cause for low cost photography. I believe it comes
down to shooting good photos as a low cost. I was telling a friend the other
day, that the cost of entry into 35mm and MF can be pretty daunting for a
newbie. I think that if they can get a quality piece like Mikes K60 or K88CM
thats a good thing, because it is all about participation in a wonderful
hobbie, not how much money you can spend.

By the way, I saw your extention setup, looks great. I am going to put mine
on Delphi soon with my bellows. I think that you should take a look at
getting them in conjunction with your tubes. The only concern I have is the
lack of structural support because the braces underneith does not go all the
way back on the 88CM, but on the 60 it does. I think you might like it. I
have also ordered from B&H the support that you got for $70, I think that
will work for my especially when the camera is not level and stressing the
camera angle.

Good Luck,
Mark.

"Stephe Thayer" [email protected]> wrote 
> Well today was the first day I've been able to use my K-60 since I
> installed this newest type 'blad screen. I got one with no focusing aides
> and the cross hairs on each side of center. It was simple to install, seven
> screws from the top, remove the blad screen from it's metal holder, sand
> about 1/32" from 2 edges and it drops in place. Focus didn't change (I
> checked it after instalation) as it's the exact same thickness as the stock
> kiev screen. It makes the prism read 1 stop off but that is easily adjusted
> on the kiev prism.
>
> I decided to do some portraits of my basset hounds so took them outside and
> set up a tripod with my MC Zeiss Jenna180mm F/2.8 lens/shade on the camera.
> I use a bogen microfocusing plate mounted between the camera and lens mount
> to get it balanced perfectly on the tripod and give it extra support.
> http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/mount1.jpg  For this low level shooting,
> I used the waist level finder instead of the prism. What a joy the whole
> "system" is now! The screen makes focusing simple and you can tell exactly
> what is in focus easily, unlike trying to line up a split image (on a dogs
> face?) or trying to judge focus with a micro prism. I could tell exactly
> the point on their nose that was in sharp focus by how sharp the hairs
> were. Also I tried shooting with the lens set on manual and this screen is
> so bright even shooting viewing at f8-f11 it was easy to see everything in
> the finder, what the DOF would be all the way to the corners and also still
> see where the sharpest focus point was.
>
> To give you an idea of the shooting conditions, it was behind my house and
> the sun had already moved to in front of the house but it was a REAL
> overcast day so the light was well diffused, perfect for portarit shooting.
> But also was far from being brightly lit as with the meter set at 400asa it
> wanted f/4 @ 1/250 yet still the image in the finder was easly visible even
> manually stopped down to f16. Anyone concerned about using DOF preview with
> THIS screen has nothing to worry about, it's much better than the stock
> ground glass type screen for this purpose.
>
>  I'm so happy to be rid of the central focusing aides as now I can
> concentrate on focusing instead of trying to look around this stuff and
> fighting with a split image focusing aide.  Being able to see the focus
> plane is the main reason I like SLR type cameras. I still haven't shot with
> the 50mm with this screen yet so I can't say what that will be like but if
> it is ANYTHING like using this screen with the 180mm sonnar is, it will be
> a huge winner! Yes this screen isn't real cheap (I got it
> though a friend who bought a dozen for $150) but it's well worth the
> investment. Probably would be a great investment for anyone using ANY SLR
> that has an older type of screen in it.
> --
>
>   Stephe
>


From: Stephe [email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Third Kievaholic Themed Online Exhibit
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 

eMeL wrote:

> At least the "Kievaholic" people are aware
> that Kiev is a so-so camera  (even with all the "adjustments", "flocking"
> and frequent CLAs) and haven't become indiscriminate cheerleaders.
> 

I post where someone can buy a reliable one with a warranty (instead of a 
risky piece of junk that needs adjustments, flocking and a cla) and you 
call that "cheerleading"? You kept trying to make some case that these are 
NOT improved models as then you couldn't keep attacking these as being 
worthless junk. Sorry if I'm happy to finally find a reliable, reasonably 
priced camera with great optics that takes great pictures. I can't 
understand what is "so-so" about that besides not having to spend a ton of 
money?  Sure the older versions (especially the k88's) were so so about the 
mechanicals staying in tune, but the results have always been good.

{cheerleading}

You are right, 5 years ago all you could buy was a "piece of junk", that's 
why I never considered getting one until now. I'm glad someone has made a 
reliable one avalible to finally go with the great optics that are avalible 
for this mount. The flektogon has been tested by several people to be 
better than the 'blad/rollei distagon, the 180mm and 300mm sonnar are some 
of the best lenses ever made and many of the russian lenses are as good or 
better than anything made in west germany. If one wishes they can spend 
>1/4 of the price of their rollei counterparts and get the modern schneider 
lenses made for the exacta 66. What is "so-so" about that?

{/cheerleading}

I suppose if someone has spent a ton of money on their camera system, it's 
a drag that someone else found someplace to buy something that reliably 
produces as good or better -results- for >1/10 the price? 

I guess I would be as bitter as you! Or do you have another reason why you 
have become such an indiscriminate basher of these cameras? Why else would 
anyone make such a smart a%^  coment to someone simply posting a link to an 
online exhbit?
-- 
 
  Stephe


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 
From: "kievgurl" [email protected]>
Subject: Re: screens n such

--- In Kiev88@y..., "dylanssoul" radiojerk21@y...> wrote:
> I just picked up a couple of rollie sp? focus screens.
> Any recomendations on who to get to install them?
>
> The camera most in need is my p6.   Later i might try and have one
> put in a kiev.
>

I installed an accumat-d screen in my K-60 myself and it was really
pretty easy. Removed the upper finder frame for the screen and under
it was three screws/brackets that holds the screen in place. I had to
use some 100 grit sandpaper to remove about 1/16 inch from two sides
to get it to fit but that was the only "trick". Unless you install it
upside down, you shouldn't have any focus problems..


Stephe

From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]>
Subject: Re: prices guide?

--- In russiancamera@y..., Robert Monaghan rmonagha@p...> wrote:
> Anybody have a price guide to russian cameras and lenses they are willing
> to share or post? I have created a few for some medium format cameras
> (http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/kowapg.html and rmonagha/bronpg.html for
> kowa 6/66 and bronica s2/EC).
>
> If not, are there any sites with reasonable prices for each of the common
> models and costs? There are kiev price guides for the medium format kits
> (see links under kiev at mf/cameras.html). These are quite handy in
> showing the range of prices asked by the various dealers with links to
> sites or ebay sales pages.
>
> I may get to a local camera show later this month, and if so, I would
> like to have a guide to reasonable prices. Last time, the seller had all
> his russian rangefinders at one price ($75 US$) and as is (no warranty)
>
> thanks for sharing any URLs or suggestions! bobm

Hello Robert,

I have visited your website many times and have learned a lot from
the many excellent articles. Thank you very much for sharing the
knowledge. And I must say I agree to most of your opinions.

I have only one piece of information to offer. According to a major
Russian camera dealer, the import price of Kiev 60 has increased
considerably. The selling price of a Kiev 60 set has incresed from
RMB1,100 last year to RMB1,600 now.  I think this will also take
place in the US.

Zhang


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 
From: "lanaya" [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Med Fmt Pre-sale CLA

--- In russiancamera@y..., Frank Weir frankweir@y...> wrote:

Hello:


> Could someone list them for those of
> us who are fairly new to the list? I know of just one
> Ebay Russian seller who has his own repair services
> and I assume he would be one. Others?

Well, this is what I know.

Vikentiy from from www.sovietcamera.com.ua, offers repairs and sells
them as priluk on ebay.

I am confused with Michael Fourman from kievcamera, does he fix or
does he replaces?

Luis


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Re: Med Fmt Pre-sale CLA

Hi

Mike has a repairman that he contracts with, I believe. If necessary, he
replaces.
 
Kevin


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]>
Subject: Re: kiev 88 lenses on kiev 60

There is such an adapter made by Hartblei.  Supposed to keep diaphragm
automation.  I have not seen one, so can't verify this claim.  You can
buy it from Mike Fourman.

Bob

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [russiancamera] kiev 88 lenses on kiev 60
>
> By the time you either paid for or made the adapter it would cost more  than
> the difference in the lens price and it would not have diaphragm  automation.


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Using Pentacon-6 or screw-mount Kiev Lenses on a Pentax 645

mlee777rf at [email protected] wrote:

> Good morning from Melbourne, Australia
>
> Has anyone out there used an adapter that does this?
> If so, full-aperture metering and focussing maintained?
>
> Mike


Z�rk makes such an adapter.  Check www.zoerk.com for info.

I use Pentacon Six lenses on my Mamiya 645 using one of Z�rk's
adapters.  You get infinity focus, but the diaphragm is not
automatic.  The meter still works, though.


You can't use screw mount lenses on a Pentax 645 unless you
want to do extreme close ups.  Since the camera body is deeper
than a 35mm SLR it has the same effect as using extension tubes.
I know of no adapter for this fitting.

Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001
From: Bob Shell [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

...

The Kiev 60 is a really great camera.  It is similar in lens mount to the
old Praktisix, Pentacon 6, Praktica 66 cameras, but simpler in its
mechanicals.  I have two of them and both work perfectly, although the
accuracy of the light meters is nothing to get excited about.  I also have
one of the modified 645 version, and it also works very well. The cloth
shutter used on these is more reliable than the stainless steel foil ones
used in most Kiev 88s.  I've accumulated most of the Carl Zeiss Jena
lenses made for Pentacon 6 and use them with the Kiev 60s.

Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

Hi Tony,

I have two, and really like them. Both did need some work to correct
some minor problems. Both are fine now, thanks to Leonid Treskunov.
This is a rather heavy camera, but, as far as I am concerned, this is an
advantage, as I do like to shoot handheld.

I think this will remind you of the Pentax 67, but the lenses and
accessories are much more reasonablly priced, IMO. I used to lust after
the Pentax, but no longer. I use CZJ lenses with mine, but the Kiev
lenses are just fine also.

I would strongly advise the investment in the Arsat 1.4x teleconverter-
this is a MOST useful accessory for framing.

For a lens selection, I would recommend a 45/50mm and a 120mm along with
the 1.4x, and of course the standard 80mm, and you will have a great
starter set, depending of course on your interests.

I would add that a set of extension tubes are very cheap, and useful.

They are bulky, but weigh nothing.

Best wishes,
Kevin


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

...

I've never gotten one of those teleconverters. Do you know the optical
formula?  Who has them for sale?

The one lens I would add to your list is the 180 f/2.8 CZJ Sonnar.  I just
LOVE this lens, although for close portraits you need an extension tube.

I also really like the 300/4 CZJ.

Bob

From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev 60

Howdy Bob!

>
> I've never gotten one of those teleconverters. Do you know the optical
> formula?  Who has them for sale?

Well, I would check with Mike Fourman at Kievcamera. I got mine from other
sources, one of which- Hartblei- owed me $$ and this was a quick way of
solving the problem, and based on prior experience worked to my benefit.

If Mike doesn't have them, do check with :

http://www.arsenal-photo.com/index.htm

Boris can be a bit slow in replying, but is VERY reliable otherwise.
The 1.4x converters are in general NOT CHEAP, usually running from 
$130-150.

But their performance is is just fine on lenses up to and including the
300 Tair/Tayirs.

I had some scans that I made, but I think I have dumped them, but could
redo them, if you wish to see the results- I do still have the original
test prints. The remainder need to be souped and printed- basically a
recheck

> The one lens I would add to your list is the 180 f/2.8 CZJ Sonnar.  I just
> LOVE this lens, although for close portraits you need an extension tube.

Yeah, the 180 can be great, along with the 300, but my reccomendation was
for a newbie/beginner, not the haory,crusty, MF vet, which both of us are!
I had flare probs with the 180 Sonnar, until I got the proper adapter ring
for my Lee Compendium shade- this solved the problem, though the Baier
flockking kit did help- and a bloody cheap investment!! Well, braced, the
180 can be used hand held with the K60 well stopped down and will provide
first rate results-- given a GOOD shade.

> I also really like the 300/4 CZJ.

Oh-yeah!! Great glass, but for a newbie? probably NOT. However- here is a
pro tip from an amateur, and this works with 35mm with the super long 500
and 1000 mirror lenses and the 250/300 telephotos on the K60 and 88 MF
cameras. Use the Bogen/Manfrotto 3420 Telephoto lens support with the
cameras/lenses.

I have modified mine to adapt it to 1/4-20 tripod heads, and normally use
this with my Bogen /Manfrotto 3021 35mm tripod equipped with a Canon Pro
ball head. The 3420 allows you to balance the load on the head very easily
to provide the best results, which are really NICE.

Regards,
Kevin


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Paint for shutter pinholes

Black Liquitex brand acrylic paint from an art supply store is best.  It
remains flexible when dry and won't flake off.  Thins with water.  Use a
very fine brush or toothpick to put it on.  Works great on bellows, too,
on the inside.

Bob
...

From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Great New Product from Mike Fourman

Benny,

One way to widen the frame spacing on the Pentacon 6 - follows-

When you wind the wind lever you will notice it stops at a fixed post in
the front with a leather circle on the top.

Remove the leather circle - loosen the screw there - this is called an
eccentric post - it turns off center.

You can turn it slightly so that it is further from the wind lever, which
has to move ahead further each time giving bigger spacing.  Once this
works for you tighten the screw and reglue the leather circle.

Good luck,

Sam Sherman



From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Can I convert my Kiev 88 to Pentacon 6 mount

No, you can't.

I don't think the guys in Prague are making the conversion since they
come that way from the factory now.  The problem with a conversion is
lack of room.  If you somehow graft a Pentacon 6 mount onto the front
of a stock Kiev 88, you will have a great camera for closeups, but
no lens will focus to infinity.  The Kiev 88s made for Pentacon 6 lenses
have a mount that is flush with the front of the camera.

There are two versions: one, the original one, in which you put the lens into
the mount and turn the whole lens to lock in place.  These have a
release button added to the body for removing the lenses. The newer
version has a Pentacon 6 type mount recessed into the body and a
lever which sticks out toward the top which you use to rotate the
recessed locking ring.

Making either conversion yourself would require a lot of machining.

Bob

> From: [email protected]
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [russiancamera] Can I convert my Kiev 88 to Pentacon 6 mount
>
> I am wondering if I buy a beat up Pentacon 6 mount camera if I can
> take it apart and put it on a Kiev 88?  The guys in Prague do a
> convert - how is this done?  Any ideas?
>
> MJA


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Kiev 60 Lens Lockup

I recently purchased a Kiev 60 6x4.5 with a 120mm lens and two
others. I have been unable to remove 120 mm lens, following
instructions ("To remove the lens turn "nut 6" (a ring) counter-
clockwise up to the stop and disconnect."). However, no matter how
much pressure is applied, the release ring will not turn. Is there a
solution other than sending it in for repair? Thanks.



From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 Lens Lockup

To remove lens from Kiev 60-

Get two thick rubber bands - cut them openn into strips of rubber.

With the lens facing you put the rubbe bands around the lens locking ring.

Encircle the ring and the rubber bands with the fingers of both hand and
turn SLOWLY counter clockwise.

That should open it. The get small light injection oiler with light oil 
and put a few drops into the
threads of the ring and turn back and forth - you should be able to open
this in the future.

If this doesn't work - send to a repairman who understands the problem.

- Sam Sherman


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Great New Product from Mike Fourman

I just got a great new product from Mike Fourman at Kiev Camera.

It is inexpensive and allows the mounting of Kiev 88 (B screw mount lenses)
on Kiev 60 - with diaphragm automation and focusing to infinity.

It is two parts - a mount converter which fits on the Kiev 88 lens and turns
it into a Kiev 60 mount lens.

A new locking ring to install (easily) on the Kiev 60 - which permits this
adapted lens to mount properly.


The bonus - the new Kiev 60 locking ring will also permit various odd
Pentacon 6 lenses and adapters to fit on Kiev 60 which would not fit before.

Instructions - to install the new ring on Kiev 60-

Unscrew small screw on old Kiev 60 ring (with lens off camera) - and turn
ring counter clock wise 3 turns to remove it.

Add some light oil to the ring threads on the camera. Put new ring on with
hole for screw in about the 4:00 position - be sure that 
you have it level and on the proper threads - turn three turns clockwise -
if you have mounted it correctly - put the small screw in on the new ring -
tight but don't break it.


That is it - takes less than 5 minutes -

Now you can use Kiev 88 lenses and odd Pentacon lenses on Kiev 60 - or 
adapt Kiev 6C in the same way.

Mike Fourman says this ring may fit Pentacon 6 too - I don't know this 
yet.

Mike will have a new ring specially made for Kiev 88CM which will permit 
the adapted lenses from Kiev 88 to work on the 88CM.

A great product.

Contact Mike through-

www.kievcamera.com

- Sam Sherman


From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001
From: Dale Dickerson [email protected]
Subject: Re: Great New Product from Mike Fourman

I bought an adapter from Mike two weeks ago. I put the new ring on the
Kiev 60. It works great. The Kiev 88 lenses with the adapter also fits
my Pentacon 6 TTL fine. No need to change the ring on the Pentacon 6
TTL. I think the ring make the Kiev 60 mount match the Pentacon 6 mount.

Dale


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Great New Product from Mike Fourman

Dale,

The Hamimex Praktica 66 is basically the same camera as the Pentacon 6TL.

After the earlier version of the regular Pentacon 6 came out - Hamimex, a
big importer/manufacturer from Australia acquired certain distribution
rights to that camera, as they were already distributing Praktica 35MM SLR
cameras in the US and possibly elsewhere.


They required that the camera be of the highest quality (it is the best
quality of the Pentacon 6 type cameras made)
and they would only provide factory repair service for these models 
branded with their name.

Superfically the cameras looks better. Instead of the dull pebble chrome
finish and the cheap leatherette of the later Pentacon 6TL cameras, the
Hamimex Praktica 66 has high quality bright chrome finish and what looks
to be real leather trim.  Beneath the surface the camera is well made and
many of these late 1960s cameras are still working perfectly. The camera
has a bright aluminum lens locking ring (not black)  and came with a
standard eye level prism with black (not aluminum colored) locking knobs.
Inside, the prism has coated optics and unlike the first model Praktisix
prism, has a coated condensor lens under the optical prism to make the
image brighter. 

All in all a fine camera. I have taken many wonderful pictures with mine
and the single coated zebra striped 80MM f2.8 Carl Zeiss Jena Biometar
lens.

After Hanimex discontinued distribution of the camera, the TTL prism which
they had as an accessory, was pushed harder and the same camera renamed
Pentacon 6 TL, to reflect the TTL prism. However, the TL just like the TL
added to the Exakta VX1000 (TL) 35MM SLR - and meant nothing and was only
a marketing gimmick. The Pentacon TTL finder, although sporting a really
dull finder image, can be set for really accurate exposure.

These later Pentacon 6TL cameras with their dull finish and black lens
ring grew cheaper and cheaper looking on the outside, but inside they can
work really well.


Having been involved with this system for many years, I can attest to its
high quality of operation and optics. Of course, it is a delicate camera
for only those who know how to use it and handle it carefully.

- Sam Sherman




From: Stefan Nuetzel [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 flocking kit
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 

"SFS" [email protected] meinte:

>Does anyone know where I can get a flocking kit for Kiev 60?

Just look at:

http://www.baierfoto.de/FlockK60.html

HTH

Stefan


r-mail
From: [email protected] (Per Backman)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Address to Arsat in Ukraine?
Date: 2 Apr 2001

"FREDRIK NILSSON" [email protected] wrote:

> Does any one know the address, phone number and e-mail to Arsat in Ukraine,
http://www.camera.kiev.ua/products.html

Per B.
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/




From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002
From: "kievgurl" [email protected]
Subject: Re: screens n such

--- In Kiev88@y..., "dylanssoul"  wrote:
> I just picked up a couple of rollie sp? focus screens.
> Any recomendations on who to get to install them?
>
> The camera most in need is my p6.   Later i might try and have one
> put in a kiev.
>

I installed an accumat-d screen in my K-60 myself and it was really
pretty easy. Removed the upper finder frame for the screen and under
it was three screws/brackets that holds the screen in place. I had to
use some 100 grit sandpaper to remove about 1/16 inch from two sides
to get it to fit but that was the only "trick". Unless you install it
upside down, you shouldn't have any focus problems..

Stephe



From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Re: prices guide?

--- In russiancamera@y..., Robert Monaghan rmonagha@p... wrote:
> Anybody have a price guide to russian cameras and lenses they are willing
> to share or post? I have created a few for some medium format cameras
> (http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/kowapg.html and rmonagha/bronpg.html for
> kowa 6/66 and bronica s2/EC).
>
> If not, are there any sites with reasonable prices for each of the common
> models and costs? There are kiev price guides for the medium format kits
> (see links under kiev at mf/cameras.html). These are quite handy in
> showing the range of prices asked by the various dealers with links to
> sites or ebay sales pages.
>
> I may get to a local camera show later this month, and if so, I would
> like to have a guide to reasonable prices. Last time, the seller had all
> his russian rangefinders at one price ($75 US$) and as is (no warranty)
>
> thanks for sharing any URLs or suggestions! bobm

Hello Robert,

I have visited your website many times and have learned a lot from
the many excellent articles. Thank you very much for sharing the
knowledge. And I must say I agree to most of your opinions.

I have only one piece of information to offer. According to a major
Russian camera dealer, the import price of Kiev 60 has increased
considerably. The selling price of a Kiev 60 set has incresed from
RMB1,100 last year to RMB1,600 now.  I think this will also take
place in the US.

Zhang



from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
Subject: Re: It sure is quiet out there.....By the way...

Hi Sam,

I too hope Jeff doesn't throw it in. I too have enjoyed his posts.
At any rate, your advice was very good.

Ken Ruth is excellent, though much more expensive than other repairmen. I
haven't seen ads in Shutterbug for him lately, but he can be reached at:
[email protected]


I still disagree about the old K88 mags, and i do recall the problems you had
with the OS mags. Sure, I had problems, but got them fixed and they are fine.
It's probably because I started with them, and also have had minor problems with
the NT mags also. Whatever! I like them both.

I have been meaning to mention that I took your advice, and bought 2 of
the K-60 body to K-88 lens adapters from mike Fourman. The installation
was quite easy- especially after I got the first one installed. One set is
unmarked, while the other bears the legend, KIEV-88/PSIX. The lenses are
difficult to mount on the marked one, but pressing the body mounted
stopdown solves this- no problem with the other. In both instances, the
diaphragm doesn't open up completely, due to the way the stopdown lever is
adjusted. Since I do not use the TTL prism, this is not a problem, and as
the cameras work well with the CZJ lenses, I am not going to change
anything. The lenses remain stopped down fo f4/5.6, and are still easy to
focus, so I am happy,and the cost was very low for the conversion kits.
This is a nice gadget, as I have MANY more K88 lenses than P-6-- thanks
for the suggestion!!!!

Regards,

Kevin




Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] SL66 or SLX, opinions? (was Rolleiwide? Who cares?)

Dan Kalish at [email protected] wrote:

> Bob, with all due respect, we have to take this with a grain of salt.
> Kievcamera CLAIMS to be their US agent.  Remember the Stolichnaya confusion
> where 4 US importers claimed to have exclusive rights.  (I think it was
> Stolichnaya).?  The former Soviet Union has mastered capitalism far better
> than we ever did.  


Nope, Hartblei says that Kievcamera is their US agent.  They've told me to
go through Mike rather than dealing directly with them.  They owe me a
camera and they're shipping it to him in one of his regular shipments.


Now Kiev is a different story.  Kiev USA (Saul Kaminsky) says he is their
official US distributor and has the documents to prove it, but Zavod Arsenal
will "wholesale" cameras to anyone who shows up at their door with cash
in hand!  So having a written exclusive distribution contract with them
really means nothing.  If they could just understand how self defeating this
is they might get somewhere.

Bob




From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 01 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: What is a good starting SLR MF camera?


I have had and used a Kiev 60 since 1988 with only good results and
no technical problems. This camera uses the Kiev 60 and Zeiss Jena/
Pentacon 6 lenses, plus the Schneider lenses for Exakta 66.

The basic camera is like a big 35MM SLR with TTL prism and speeds
to 1/1000th second. The camera is very low cost.

www.kievcamera.com - sells the new black models for about $300
and the older models for $250 or less. These are complete kits and
come with full warranty.

There are so many other Kiev 60 users who are having good results with these
cameras all over the world.

You might also look at-          www.kievaholic.com
to see results from users of this equipment.

Good luck,

Sam Sherman



Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: What is a good starting SLR MF camera?

... (quoting above post)

I owned one for two years, and had the same result. Good overall
pictures with the Kiev 60 lens, the arsat 80mm 2.8. I bought a Mamiya
645 1000s and sold the Kiev. I don't really miss it, but it did get me
into MF, something I would not have done had I not bought the Kiev.




From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: What is a good starting SLR MF camera?
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 


Abel Hadwell wrote:

>
> About the second question:  Once you get into the cameras that cost
> multiple
> thousands of dollars, they're all *really* nice to handle and work with.
> It comes down to your working style and what's best for you.
>
> I spent nine months doing research before I got my Pentax 645n.  And,
> since
> I knew what was good/bad about it, there were absolutely no surprises.  I
> read good reviews, I read bad ones.  At the end you can distill all the
> bulls**t out to find out what it's really like.
>
> So go backwards:  How do you work?  What features are important to you?
>
> Selecting a camera will then be the easy part.  It's paying for it that's
> hard...  ;)


Which is the main reason I got a Kiev-60 (newest all black MLU from
kievcamera). So far (about 20 rolls of film) all have been excelent. I've
used lots of different camera's from 4X5's, fuji rangefinders to various
TLR's and found the quality of the optics as good or better than anything
else I've used. SO far I own a 30mm a 50mm, an 80mm, a 180mm and a 250mm
and all are MC, nice and sharp/contasty.

 Maybe at some point I'll be sorry I invested in this system but at this
point I'm real happy I did and am having more fun than I have in years
shooting! I am pretty handy at repairing mechanical things so I'm not too
worried about that and plan to get a backup body ($200) just in case. These
probably aren't the most reliable camera in this size but if you don't
shoot hundreds/thousands of rolls a year, they will last a long time.

I do agree that the basic camera is pretty reasonable for any of the
"systems", it the extra lenses etc that will kill you on some of them.
--

  Stephe


From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: to sell or not to sell the 5x7
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002


Ken Smith wrote:


>
> Can anyone talk me out of selling this. I dont need the money, but as
> I stated, this is quite alot more work for what seems to be negligable
> quality differences.

You won't get it from me.. I've gone "backwards" as well.

I'm finding out I enjoy shooting with my russian kiev gear more than ever
did with 4X5, never have dust or other weird problems, shooting 6X6 is more
interesting to me and between things like the cheap 30mm fisheye and using
a 250mm for long landscapes shots I can do so much more. I found I almost
never printed larger than 8X10 or MAYBE 11X14 so I just can't see myself
using mine much anymore. I don't know if I'd sell it, I'm not going to and
plan on still shooting with mine some but between my K-60 and my fuji 6X9
GSW, the difference isn't enough for the hassle involved for me.

--

  Stephe


From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 08 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: Kiev models - Film Flatness


Many years ago there was a Pentacon 6 club in the USA.

In their newsletter they advocated putting an optical flat glass
plate in the film plane and that solved the film flatness problem.

I would like to have someone do that adaptation on one of my cameras.

- Sam Sherman



From: Marv Soloff [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev models - Film Flatness
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002

... (quote above post)

Sam you may not need optically flat glass for this - try to find an old
glass slide (2 x 3 or 3 x 4), clean it down to the bare glass, cut to
fit, and glue it (use double sided tape) to the pressure plate.

Should work.

Regards,

Marv



From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev models - Film Flatness (improved with Fuji spools)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002


Sandy King wrote:

>
> So what is the right way to load the camera. I have three Kiev-60 cameras
> and see very tight spacing on most of my rolls with all three cameras.
>
> Sandy King

I put the film and the take up spool in the camera, then thread the leader
through the take up spool and turn it with my thumb to get the film started
evenly and to make sure it's tight on the take up spool. Then I fire the
shutter and wind a frame off making sure the film is centered. I look at
where the line up line is and decide if I can fire off another frame or
"nudge" the film foward a little at a time with the film ad=vance without
firing the shutter. I normally go slightly past the red dot and close the
back, fire off frame until the 1 is on the counter.

If you continue to have problems with kissing frames, this can be adjusted.
EIther send it to someone who knows these camera's for a CLA, (probably has
never been done and unless it's one of the 2001 all black models, it
probably needs one anyway) or read how to adjust this yourself at the
kievaholic web site.

--

  Stephe



From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Mounting a 1920's 150mm f4.5  tessar to a K-60.
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 


http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/tessar_150mm.html

Just finished this project and I think this is going to be a cool portrait
lens. Ended up with about $75 in this and about two hours worth of work. I
was lucky to find this lens on this strange focusing helix/tube. Anyone
have an idea what this was originally off of? Someone sugested a 4X5 SLR
but I checked it and mounted on the smaller diameter ext tube that came
with it, it wouldn't cover 4X5. It almost covers 4X5 without the ext tube
or the brass adapter and with the screw mount removed from the back of the
main tube it did cover 4X5 straight on.
--

  Stephe



From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002


eMeL [email protected] wrote:

> Seriously - I have yet to see a Schneider lens mounted on a *user's*
> Pentacon Six (Exakta...)  I have seen one (80 mm, second-hand) in a photo
> store in Munich (Germany) but the proprietor told me that it was the only
> Schneider for P-six he'd ever seen.

Foto Walser of Burgheim, Germany, is selling them new on ebay.de, all
the time. Mostly the 60 mm and 150 mm lenses. And yes, people buy them.
Look for auctions by 'nikke'.

Foto Baier also has them in stock and so did Foto Gregor in Cologne
before Exakta production was ended.

Over here, Schneider Kreuznach lenses are considered to be on one
quality level with Zeiss Oberkochen.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses




From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002

Frank Lasse wrote:
> [email protected] says...
>
>> The whole deal is how much money do you have to spend on your hobby? For
>> what a 50mm 'blad lens costs, you can get a whole set of CZJ lenses and a
>> couple of bodies. Also the factory will rebuild your camera using the
>> latest exacta 66 parts for not a whole bunch of money. Another good
>> upgrade is a better focusing screen.
...
> Hi Stephe
>
> What focusing screen would you recommend for the P6? I admit that the
> original one is a little dark and I could do with a brighter one.


Several options. The stock kiev-60 screen is MUCH brighter than a P-6 one
and if you can find someone who has upgraded their k-60 screen, the old one
shouldn't cost too much (Maybe $15-$20?) Another inexpencive option is a
blad accumat screen being sold by someone upgrading to an accumat-d screen.

 I installed one of these accumat-d screens in my K-60 and it was amazing
how good it is, but it's half what I paid for the camera new, getting a
deal on it!! Another option would be a maxwell screen, made by Bill
Maxwell. I've used these in other cameras and they are excellent.
--

  Stephe







From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 22 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question


Michael,

Some information for the record re- my Kiev and Pentacon cameras -
not 100% perfect-  (Look at the record)-

Pentacon 6TL - Have had this since the late 70s with no repair problems.

Hanimex Praktica 66 - Had since the mid 70s - some speeds are off and
now needs repair and adjustment. Have had a lot of use from this.

Praktisix II - Speeds need adjust now- I burned a hole in the shutter curtain
in the desert and had one curtain replaced.

Kiev 6C - Have since l985 - no problems

Kiev 60 - Have since 1988 - no problems

Salyut-C (since early 2001) - Had several defective ones from dealer
until I found one good one, now using it just fine.

Kiev 88/Crank -(since mid 2001) Had original defective crank replaced with
better "Hartblei" crank - everything else fine - now getting good use from
camera.

Kiev 88CM - Now using "Hartblei-Upraded" camera just fine - had earlier
cameras with minor problems, but dealer replaced the cameras rather
than fixing them - although the mechanics were generally fine.

Similar history with Kiev and Zeiss Jena lenses - although all are working fine
now.

So, you can see that none of this is 100%, but well within reason of how
all types of camera equipment can need repair/adjustment/cleaning etc.
I will have the few needing adjustment worked on. The others work just
fine and I am getting good results from them.

- Sam Sherman


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: My "new" Kiev 60 report!

Hello everyone,

I have to report that I just got back my first roll of film back from
the Kiev 60 I purchased through crazy Vadim....and the results are
stunning! Of course I told my wife that it is the photographer, not
the camera (well...maybe a little of both!)!!!! I was shooting Kodak
Extachrome (100 or 125???). It was a clear , sunny day in February
(R@RE!!!). I managed to squeeze 13 shots out of the roll. Film
spacing was on the money, shots are brilliant. When I find a
processor to make the prints directly from the slides, I will scan a
couple or three and post them.

If anyone is thinking of making the plunge into Medium Format...at
least based on my results so far....go for it! As the film/processing
is more expensive that 35mm, I am a little more discriminating about
what I'm shooting, but the results are pretty spectacular. Now I can
hardly wait to try out my mint Lubitel from "Zenitar" and Moskva 5
from Anya. Regarding the Moskva 5, it has a 6 x 6 and 6 x 9
capability, but I am totally unfamiliar with 6 x 9. Does this mean on
a roll of 120 you get about 9 exposures to the roll if you shoot 6 x
9? Thanks!

Mike Steele


From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: P6 mount users, heads up!
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002


It appears that the folks at Foto Walser are short of either space or
cash. For the last two weeks, they've been shelling out 80 mm Biometars
as if there'd be no tomorrow, on ebay.de. Latest Exakta version,
sparkling new, at a starting bid of 1 Euro.

Got one for 68 and a second for 62 Euro*. :-)

Haven't processed the test film yet but the coating looks definitely
better than on my Volna and the old GDR Biometars. My main reason for
buying them, however, is the much more direct focussing drive. A mere
160 degrees instead of well over 300. Very nicely made, although quite
bulky. Almost twice the size and weight of the older versions.

Ralf

*) about 60 and 55 USD

--
Ralf R. Radermacher
NEW URL!!! private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses



[Ed. note: reminder regarding warning in Kiev 60 manual re: pointing at sun!]
From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: K60 "do and don't do"

Hi Stephe,
With the mirror down!?? Jeez!
Ok, just took a look. The hole would be at the top of the photo right?
makes sense, and most definitely needs mention. Many thanks!
Kevin

Stephe Thayer wrote:
>
> --- Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected] wrote:
> > Miguel,
> > I never did get around to writing a "do's and
> > don'ts" for the K-60.
>
> If you write one make sure to add the one about not
> pointing a 180mm sonar at a sunset for any period of
> time. Several people have mentioned burning holes in
> shutter curtains doing this even with the mirror down!
> I'm sure with the mirror up it would happen easily.
>
> Stephe
>
> http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl



From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: First impressions of MF / 501CM
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002


Mxsmanic wrote:

> "Stephe" [email protected] wrote ...
>
>> This is where we disagree. I'd rather have
>> a cheaper camera, have money left for burning
>> some film and not having to worry about that
>> part of it..
>
> But you seem not to mind tinkering with equipment to get it to work, or
> to keep it working, whereas I hate that sort of thing.

Did I say you should get a kiev ever?  Actually I warned you not to!

There are other options in 6X6 that are JUST as reliable, have a normal
lens (like you have) take just as good a picture etc.  I have a rollei TLR
I've shot hundreds of rolls of film through and never touched it. Same with
the modern fuji rangefinders that are half the cost of a new 'blad, shoot
fast and even have a good zoom lens on some models.  The bronica's are a
nice camera and have great optics, but none of these have the snob appeal a
'blad (or an F5 or a leica) has.

Like I said we disagree here that one should stretch their budget on a
basic kit to the point they can't even afford film for it..

>I note, however,
>that the high-end system is starting to get up there in price ... $600

You bought the cheapest 'blad, why are you now looking at the "high end"?

The best kiev IMHO as far as being reliable is their $300 K-60, that's less
than a second film back for a 'blad.
--
stephe
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/



From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: First impressions of MF / 501CM
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 


Mxsmanic wrote:

> "Stephe" [email protected] wrote ...
>
>> The bronica's are a nice camera and have great
>> optics, but none of these have the snob appeal a
>> 'blad (or an F5 or a leica) has.
>
> True, some people get very envious of Hasselblads, Nikons, or Leicas.

LOL

More like shallow people are impressed with people that use them.

Lots of pro's admit one of the reasons they use them is so clients will
think they are "serious".. Also I never understood those 35mm SLR's that
are bigger and heavier than a MF camera anyway except to try to look
"professional".

>> You bought the cheapest 'blad, why are you now
>> looking at the "high end"?
>
> Because the high-end Kiev is probably the closest approach to even the
> cheapest Hasselblad.

Wrong assumption.. More money doesn't always equal better. The cheaper Kiev
is a better camera if one does not REQUIRE film backs that can change
midroll. I didn't need that. More features that aren't needed just
complicate the camera, make it noisier (like a 'blad with it's double
shutter) and more likely to have problems.

I looked at ALL the SLR's and could have easily afforded the basic 'blad
kit you bought and probably a lens or two as well. I chose what I did
because it fit what I shoot, I liked the way it felt after renting and/or
borrowing everything I was looking at including a blad, a maymia 7, pentax
6x7 and several others. I would have liked a 2000 series 'blad for the
focal plane shutter and fast glass but that WAS out of my budget. I really
wanted things like a 180mm f2.8 for portraits that few systems have and
didn't really like the way "box" cameras feel hand held. I like 6X6 and
didn't like the idea of holding a pentax 6X7 sideways and also hate prism
fimders etc etc. When I used a K-60 I knew it was what I wanted. I would
have bought a "blad version of this type if they made one but they don't.

Point being money wasn't the driving factor for me, but it's nice that it's
very reasonable to boot!

Don't assume people are "envious" of your 'blad because they don't own one.
There are many reasons they are not what everyone would want to use.

--
stephe
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/


From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Which Camera ? Mamiya or Kiev
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002


kauai82 wrote:

> I have asked a lot of questions in the past about different TLR cameras
> and have been helped greatly by the group. I am mainly interested in
> landscapes and I am thinking about buying a new camera instead of doing
> the ebay thing. Doing my part to help MF manufactures ! The pictures I
> take are for myself only and I would like to blow up some of the better
> ones to 20X30 for my personal use to hang on the wall at home. I have a
> couple of questions that might help my decision.
>
> One, I can buy a Mamiya 645e and with Mamiya's rebate and get a 55mm lens
> for free.

Can't comment on the mamiya, I'm sure it's a nice camera.

> Two, I can get a Kiev 60 kit with a mirror lock up out of Kiev Camera with
> a one year warranty for $300 dollars. If I want a newer 2000-2001 model it
> would be about $350. Are the newer ones better ?

I bought a 2001 K-60 and have had no problems with it. The meter is
accurate, the shutter works well, no film spacing issues etc. I really like
having a waist level finder as for me, it works better for landscape
composing. I did upgrade the focus screen with a late 'blad acutematte-D
but that was a personal thing, I hate focusing aides.

Don't be tempted to get one of the old stock straight from russia k-60's
off ebay or elsewhere for $100. Also IMHO the K88 isn't as reliable as the
K-60's are and are responsible for most of the bad press kiev's have gotten.

>I can buy a wide angle
> lens for $250 to $350 depending on how wide I want to go. I hear that the
> 30mm fisheye is great, but I don't think I want to go that wide. Is the
> 45mm lens also as good ?

The 45mm is probably the worst lens in the lineup as far as quality
control. Some people have gotten good samples and the results are good,
others have gotten bad ones and they really are poor. Mike has some
hartblei MC (remounted in a better barrel and multicoated) versions that
are still less than $300 and are better quality control and flare wise
compared to the MIR Russian versions..

I'd suggest getting a late MC all black version of the east German zeiss
jena 50mm f4 flektogon. Plenty of these in mint condition on ebay for under
$300 and these are REALLY good performers. Some noted photographers say
they are better than the west German distagon. Given the flat film plane of
a K-60, these go perform excellent.


For the $1200 you have to spend (about what I had when I bought mine) you
can get the latest MLU kit, a flektogon, a 30mm, both of the really good
teleconverters and maybe even the 250mm f5.6 telear as well (with some
careful shopping). Here is a link to my landscape kit.

http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/field.html


That should cover just about anything you'd want to shoot. Also if you're
ever going to do any portrait type work, the 180mm f2.8 sonnar is one of
the best portrait lenses I've ever used and the latest MC versions are
again less than $300.

Other people can comment on the pluses of the mamiya. I don't really care
for 6X4.5 and like not having to turn the camera on it's side to change
orientation. Also with 6X6 you get a slight shift for perspective control.
I'm not sure if that camera has a waist level finder only option either. As
far as the weight issue, if you leave the prism finder at home, the camera
is MUCH lighter. I wouldn't be surprised if the prism is 1/4-1/3 of the
weight of the camera!

You can read more about the kiev-60 at my website link below. These aren't
for everyone and can be a little quirky at first, but once I got used to it
and saw what it can produce, I'm happy I bought mine. Also try reading at
the kiev report at delphi http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start
for more info and a feel for what these are all about..

--
stephe
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/



From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Which Camera ? Mamiya or Kiev
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002


Stephe [email protected] wrote:
> Don't be tempted to get one of the old stock straight from russia k-60's
> off ebay or elsewhere for $100. Also IMHO the K88 isn't as reliable as the
> K-60's are and are responsible for most of the bad press kiev's have gotten.

Can't be said often enough. These are the cameras people keep
complaining about.

> The 45mm is probably the worst lens in the lineup as far as quality
> control.

Quite so. Plus one hell of a barrel distorsion. You wouldn't ever want
anything vertical near the edges.

> I'd suggest getting a late MC all black version of the east German zeiss
> jena 50mm f4 flektogon.



Exactly. This is probably the last lens I'd ever want to be without.

> ...and maybe even the 250mm f5.6 telear

...or rather a 180 mm Sonnar. Much better quality....

> Also if you're
> ever going to do any portrait type work, the 180mm f2.8 sonnar is one of
> the best portrait lenses I've ever used...

...and most probably one of the heaviest. Unless you want to use a
tripod for portrait work, all the time, or you're into pro-grade
weightlifting, I'd suggest the 120 mm Biometar for portrait work.

More on the subject at my own website:

http://www.fotoralf.de/k60.htm


Then, I've just discovered a new site on P6 mount lenses. Someone has
done an incredible work making test shots from practically everything
fitting a P6 or Kiev 60 bayonet including various combinations of lenses
and converters.

http://www.pentaconsix.btinternet.co.uk/index.htm

Happy Easter to all of you. Mine is quite rotten because the *beeeep*
Deutsche Post hasn't been able to deliver my new Pentacon 5.6/500 mm
lens which had been posted last Tuesday! Come next Tuesday morning,
they'll hate the day they were born!  :-((

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
NEW URL!!! private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de


[Ed. note: thought the rumor of a 40mm Hartblei was worth noting!...]

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 
From: Stephe [email protected]
To: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
Subject: Re: Neat! Re: New kiev 60 page

> re: Mir reputation
> the mir 45mm has a bad rep; I have one for my Kiev 60, and it has a larger
> degree of visible distortion than I'd like, but was a good buy (~$75-100
> in the package deal added on).

Well looks like I'm going to try a MIR and see what I get. Bought a K-60 with
a volna 90 AND a 45mm MIR for $110! Guess if any of it is good I made out  :-)


I do have a fuji 6X9 with the 65mm which is a great camera, but hate to haul
it around if I can get a good wide lens for my K-60. Mike at kiev camera had
some hartblei 45mm MC lenses I might check out if this MIR tuens out to be
junk and Adam on the delphi forum claims he heard hartblei is working on a
40mm P-6 mount lens! I'll let you know what turns up with this and thanx for
the info!
--

  Stephe


From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 
From: Marc James Small [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev-60 Strap

Paul Shinkawa wrote:
>Did the OP/TEC strap have the proper lug attachments?


Yes, Paul, and that is the entire point I was making.  The lugs on the
Kiev's and Hasselblad are identical.

Marc
[email protected] 


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: Kiev60  to M-42 adapter question.....

Hello Comrades,

I just got a Kiev 60 mount-M-42 adapter from "Grizzly33bear?" in
Kiev. It is brand new and I'm sure I will get a lot of use out of it.
However, as I was playing with it last night, one question occurred,
perhaps someone can help?  When you throw a 2X converter on a lens,
it cuts the light hitting the film in half (or so I've been told),
but what affect does a "lens less" adapter have on light?  It would
think it would lower light somewhat, and on a TTL meter system (like
Zenit 12 XP) it doesn't matter, as the TTL system will compensate,
allowing you to set the right aperture/speed combination. But on a
Zenit E...with the meter "outside" the lens system, how do I figure
out the correct aperture/speed?  I suppose I could try the
old "Steele system" (Keep trying until you succeed!), but perhaps
there's a better way!


Thanks,

Mike Steele


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: Kiev60  to M-42 adapter question.....

If such an adapter maintains the correct flange to film distance it will
have absolutely no effect on light transmission.  If it extends that
distance it will reduce light just as an extension tube or bellows would.

A 2X converter magnifies an image 2X linearly, or 4X in area.  The same
amount of light is being "spread out" to cover four times the area, even
though you aren't using all of it.  Four times the area means 1/4 as
much light at any given point in the image, and that's a two stop
difference.  This is why you lose two stops with a 2X converter.

Bob


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 
From: Paul Shinkawa [email protected]
Subject: Kiev 60 similarities to Yashica

While I was replacing light seals on some of my
cameras recently, I happened to notice that the back
release catch on the Yashica Lynx 5000e is identical
to that on the Kiev 60! They look so much alike that
they could have come from the same subcontractor. The
catch is an unusual one in that it is on the bottom
and is a small button in a curved slot. The button is
pushed in toward the body and pushed or pulled across
the slot to release the back.The two cameras, while
nowhere near similar in size, also have the same
general body shape, i.e. flat on the front with a
gentle concave back.

Were any Japanese component suppliers ever used by
Soviet/Ukrainian manufacturers? Or vice versa?

-Paul




From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 07 Feb 2002 
Subject: Kiev models - Film Flatness


I learned from a veteran camera technician how to check film flatness in
rollfilm slr cameras. Remove the lens - load the camera with test roll of film
- used for this purpose.  Set the shutter to "B" and examine the film plane 
through the front of the camera on each shot with the shutter open. Use a plastic 
pen and probe the film surface to see if it exhibits any puffiness or "bulging" 
up from the pressure plate or any wavy un-flat areas. After doing this for a while 
one gets to recognize a flat film plane and unflat one.

Of course, this will vary from camera model to camera model,
type of film used and upgraded versions of older cameras.

Normally cameras exhibitng a very flat film plane are capable of
very sharp results with good lenses.

Here is what my tests have revealed on Kiev Cameras-

Kiev 88CM and Kiev 88 with new "NT" back - very flat film plane repeatedly so -
all frames on a roll of film and roll to roll.

Kiev 88CM and Kiev 88 - with old type Kiev back - very unreliable
from back to back and exposure to exposure on the same roll. Exhibits
puffiness on the film bulging forward and some wavy sections.
These older backs can be upgraded and flatness improved.

Kiev 60 (my 1988 model) - Some wavy areas on the first few frames-
some puffiness. Later added 3/8" wide flocking at the side edges of the film
aperture in back of camera. Generally much flatter film plane overall.

Kiev 6C (1985 model) - different film plane than in Kiev 60 as
it also takes 220 film. Added wide (about 1") flocking at film plane
and generally flat film plane on all exposures.


Kiev 60 types vs. Kiev 88 types on film flatness issues -

The interchangeable backs on the Kiev 88 types can experience
variances in specs and tightness to the camera bodies - which can cause focus
problems. The one-piece Kiev 60 types have no back variations to deal with and
should have better focus integrity.

The "NT" backs have a newer design than the old Kiev backs,
in which the pressure plate presses the film solidly against two thin rollers -
at the top and the bottom of the frame - of the back
frame aperture. This helps to stretch the film taut and give a flat
film plane - even though the curved path design of the NT back has been known
to cause unflat film in other cameras. The straight across film path of the
Kiev 60 types lacks the curved path of the Kiev 88 backs - and helps to deliver
flatter film in this way.

My experience shows me that while the above works in theory-
this varies from each individual camera - one to another and the
type of film used - thicker or thinner.

Make your own tests to determine what your camera can do.



From: [email protected] (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 

Frank Lasse [email protected] wrote:
> What focusing screen would you recommend for the P6? I admit that the
> original one is a little dark and I could do with a brighter one.

After having one in my K60 for years, I've had Rollei 6008 screens
mounted in my two Exakta 66's by Pentacon of Dresden. Cost about 100
Euro. Very pleased.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher  -  DL9KCG  -  K�ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de


from kiev88 camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 
From: Giuliano Fresi [email protected]
Subject: Re: Film Flatness- could the rollers accentuate

...
This has no matter with rollers: i've just discovered
a source of Russian stuff...in Russia!

Everything costs a fraction of wich you would pay at
any western importer: a set of extension rings for K60
comes at 17 Dollars.

The site is www.moscowgifts4u.com and there are the
user's manuals for K60 and k88 too.

Regards,
G.


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 
From: Gene Johnson [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT: Soviet cameras

I use Kiev 6C's and I know Marc has been known to use a Kiev 88.  If you get
one that works, they tend to stay that way.  Decent lenses at very low
prices. Safest bet in Medium format is probably the Kiev 60.  Now lenses.
If you run into a MC 50 or 65 Flektogon or MC Sonnar180 or MC Vega or MC
Biometar 120 for the Kiev 60/Pentacon 6 let me know! It pays to get the
latest multicoated versions of the lenses.  The Vega 12b is a real sleeper.
It came standard on the 6C's.  Very sharp 90mm that focuses down to 18
inches.

Gene


From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Which Camera ? Mamiya or Kiev
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002

[email protected] wrote:

> Maybe I'm stupid but I don't understand why if someone can machine the
> camera to take Pentacon mount lenses that won't seat
> normally on the camera - why this mod can't be done in the factory.  This
> is one of the main reasons why I won't consider an 88CM right now.

ALL of the russian lenses fit without any problem. MOST of the CZJ lenses
fit without any problem. One or two of lenses made by someone else (CZJ for
the pentacon) have fit issues with this camera.  They are now selling them
with the ring machined correctly, hence the silver inside of the ones that
have had this modification to correct this.

If a camera needing to be slightly modified to accept lense by another
manufacturer bothers you, no you shouldn't even THINK about buying a kiev
and stick with the other high end models that only accept lenses made by
them to start with.. Personally as long as a camera works good, I don't
care who fixed it or what it is.
--
stephe
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/



From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Which Camera ? Mamiya or Kiev
Date: 2 Apr 2002 


Perhaps part of the problem is that there were several different
cameras made by several different groups in different parts of the
world over a very long period of time that used what we generally call
the Pentacon 6 mount.  There were slight modifications made between
these groups -- primarily in the auto-aperture mechanism
implementation.

Now a standard 88CM will take most P6 mount lenses.  There are a few
known problems -- which include the CZJ 180mm Sonnar and the 50mm and
80mm lenses' DOF levers getting in the way sometimes.  We have to
remember that these lenses are not Arsenal (Kiev) products and so they
might not have been taken into consideration when designing the 88CM.

Also, it is not the mount that is generally the problem...  Due to
differences in flange to film registration distances, a K88 body with
a P6 mount MUST have the mount recessed into the body in order to
achieve infinity focus.  Basically, you're sinking the lenses into the
face of the camera a bit.  Now, the Sonnar is fat-barreled enough that
the *barrel* of the lens, not the mount, butts up against the locking
ring on the 88CM just a bit... but enough to prevent proper seating.

Some might say that the 88CM's locking ring was poorly designed.
Sure, I wish I didn't have to modify it to take the Sonnar... but it
does the job it was probably designed to do -- take newer Arsenal K60
mount lenses.

Whether or not Arsenal is aware of the problem (I think they know) is
another matter.  Being a state-run entity, they tend to move rather
slowly.  Change is a bureaucrat's nightmare.

I'm just glad that they DID produce the 88CM because it is quite an
improvement over the basic 88 design.  And with a minor modification
(that is now easy to get through Mike Fourman of Kievcamera.com) it
WILL take all the P6 lenses you want to attach to it.

-Kevin


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 
From: Stephe Thayer [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lens mount identification


--- d_d_branson [email protected] wrote:
> I recently purchased a Kiev 88CM, and my Mir-26B
> 45mm lens just
> arrived in the mail. The seller called it a Pentacon
> 6 mount, which
> is right for the CM, but it doesn't fit. It *looks*
> like my other P-
> 6 mount lenses and it slides into the mount, but
> then I can't turn
> the locking ring.

http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/fit.html

This is the first thing to check on any P-6 mount
camera that has a lens fit issue.

Stephe


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: Great source for Russian adapters, etc....Grizzly33bear!!!!

Hello Comrades!

A couple days ago I received a 2X Converter for my Kiev 60 from a
seller who is new to me..."Grizzly33bear". It arrived in a record
tying 7 days, from Kiev....equaling one other shipment form Anya
(Odessa) which also arrived in 7 days. Usually my gems from Ukraine
take 10 days....from Russia 10-14 days.......and the slowest (and
most expensive!) in Europe is Germany  (Big $$$ and 3 weeks!) Of
course the Autobahn is fantastic!!!!

This 2X converter is worth it's weight in gold. Produced by the
Arsenal in Ukraine.....it instantly gives me twice as many lenses for
my Kiev 60!  I do not detect any fall off in image quality either,
when using the converter.  It seems like Grizzly33bear has zillions
of converters for Russky/Ukr stuff, and other nice items as well. I
also have a Kiev60/M-42 converter coming form Grizzly33bear also.

Of course now, I'll have to order a M39/M42 converter (as soon as I
get more than the M-39 SLR lens).......sigh!!!!.....it NEVER ENDS!!!!!

So many toys.....so little time!!!!!

Best Regards,

Mike (I just want to have fun) Steele


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Great source for Russian adapters, etc....Grizzly33bear!!!!

Hello Bob and all,

Not that I know of, but he has EVERYTHING!!! Especially for Kiev
60...I just spotted and bought a reversal ring for Kiev 60 also!
Of course he/she is actually in Kiev...so close to the source!

Best Regards,

Mike Steele

- In russiancamera@y..., Bob Shell bob@b... wrote:
> Does this grizzly individual have a web site?
>
> Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Great source for Russian adapters, etc....Grizzly33bear!!!!

Hi Bob and all,
I've gotten emails from "[email protected]". Many items
are "Buy It Now", which is usually how I've bought from them. The
person who just confirmed my purchase on eBay was Zhanna.

Regards,

Mike Steele

P.S. maybe I'll ask them to post a list and price for other who may
be interested.


From: Stephe [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: what do you think about Kiev 60 and russian lenses?
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002


dt wrote:

> Do you think Kiev-60 and the lenses 80 and 65 mm are worth buying?
> Also, how does a brand new Kiev 60 compares to Mamiya C220 for example, or
> other 20 year old camera of the same class?


A kiev is not a perfect camera. They can have issues that need to be worked
out and it seems the ones sold by places like kiev USA and kievcamera have
less than ones sold direct from russia on ebay. The K-60 has less issues
than the k88 as well. If you need a pefect camera, want something that has
excelent build quality and you can't be required to have a backup body,
DON'T buy one. If you want to have fun shooting for little money, they are
great.

The glass seems fine. Wide open the 80mm arsat lens isn't fantastic (most
lenses aren't) but by f5.6 are good performers. The 80mm biometar lens is
good wide open, very good at the middle fstops and some of the people who
have tested the biometar vs the west germnan zeiss planar say the biometar
is --slightly-- better. The 65mm MIR is a really good lens as is the 50mm
CZJ flektogon. The 30mm is worth owning and is WAY more useful for
landscapes than most people imagine it would be. Too many of the sample
shots are done to exagerate the fisheye effect. If carefully used, it can
look like a superwide rectiliniar lens and for $220, is WAY cheaper than
anything like it for any format.


I suppose this boils down to very good optics with a so-so body thrown in
for free  :-) A twin lens, even with interchangable lenses, has it's own
set of use problems (such as macro and paralax issues, no TTL metering etc)
which is why I didn't get one. Also any of the old SLR's are going to also
have reliability issues, so I figured to get a year warranty, why not a
K-60? The C series Mamiya cameras are more reliable but I doubt they are
any better or even as good optically as the good P-6 lenses are..
--
stephe
http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/



From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: what do you think about Kiev 60 and russian lenses?
Date: 7 Apr 2002


Wow.  Kiev 60 vs. Mamiya C220.  Apples to oranges.

Honestly, I have neither camera... but perhaps I can come close enough
with a Mamiya C3 and two Kiev 88-type cameras?

Like Jeff Sumner wrote, the Mamiya TLRs just work.  They are very
simple and that means there is little to go wrong with them.  Their
lenses are generally quite good too... but that's a loaded statement
because it really depends on what you're expecting and what you're
comparing them against.  If you're coming from 35mm and compare your
Mamiya TLR images, you'll probably be blown away.  If you're comparing
them against modern Zeiss T* lenses... well, I think T* has the nod
for sharpness, color, and contrast.

Downside to the Mamiya TLRs is that they are, well, TLRs...  In my
book, the biggies are: parallax problems in closeup work (unless you
get a Paramender) and using filters like polarizers and grads is a
pain.  On the plus side, they are quiet and vibration-free with no
mirror to move out of the way before exposure, and you have no image
blackout at (and after) exposure.

Kievs.  Kievs, Kievs, Kievs.  Lots of people hate them.  I love mine.
Why do I love mine?  Because I can actually afford to expand my system
and can afford lenses to use.  I recently had fun lining up my Kiev
88CM with its lenses for a photo for the opening page of
Kievaholic.com.  Aside from the 88CM body, film back, and Spot-TTL
prism, the lenses were: 30mm, 45mm, 50mm, 65mm, 80mm, 90mm, 120mm,
120mm, 150mm, 180mm, 300mm.  Total investment?  $1725.  Let's see...
for $1725, I can get a body, back, WLF, and one lens from a major name
brand MF maker...  If I shop used, maybe I can get a prism and another
lens?

Okay.  I'm babbling now.  Back to the subject at hand!

Kievs can be fun, or they can be frustrating.  If you want perfection,
please stay away from Kievs.  If you want to put food on your table by
shooting events, please stay away from Kievs.

But, if you don't mind funky (smelly) cameras and just take pictures
for your own enjoyment... well, then Kievs might be worth a look.
Just please buy one from a reputable dealer who will be there tomorrow
and gives a return/repair period (like Kievcamera.com) -- I just got
another e-mail from a guy who bought an old K88 off of eBay and it was
half-broken when he got it.  Boy do I feel sorry for him.

Back to why I use my Kiev...  I'm a hobbyist and I take pictures for
fun... when I want and of what I want.  I take my pictures seriously,
of course, but I'm not trying to pay the rent with them and banking on
my camera's reliability.

To be perfectly honest, I don't have absolute faith in my Kievs (some
people do... I don't)... so when I get asked to do some "important
shoot", I take my Bronica SQ-A kit... but when I'm shooting for
myself, I prefer the Kiev.  The versatility I have with my Kiev kit is
just unbeatable, and I prefer the chromes I get from my CZJ lenses
over the ones I get from my Zenzanon lenses.  That's personal
preference, but I for one see something in lens "bokeh" and the CZJ
lenses have wonderful bokeh.  Good 'ol Zeiss designs!

If you care to see some Kiev-taken photos, you can check
http://kievaholic.com/ or visit http://photosig.com/ and browse by
camera -- there is a fairly large Kiev representation on PhotoSIG now.
=)

What do you need from a camera?  Your choice should match the answer
to that question.

-Kevin



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 
From: "ganderfive" [email protected]
Subject: Re: medium Format / Gender Discussions

Hello Anya and all,

I echo Tim's comments! Gender, national origin, political viewpoint,
religion, race, etc. are not the primary focus of this group. There
are other "groups" to seek out if that's what you want to talk about.
There are some song lyrics out there that say something to the effect
that..."in the end, you just have to be yourself!" We welcome
transexual sumo wrestlers, as long as they are Russian camera fans!
If you become anyone one other than who you are Anya, I'll be
disappointed in you, and "they" will have won! Don't let that happen!

Regarding the Kiev 60, I actually have a couple (one for
Detroit...the other Chicago....strange life!)and love them! Bob Shell
gave me some tips on some recommended lenses, and I've picked up a

couple of them, so far. I'd really love a Pentax 645....but the body
alone cost $1650 new....for a half of that I can get a pretty
complete set of lens and body, case, filter with the Kiev 60 system.
The biggest weakness of Kiev 60 is the "film spacing problem".
Frankly, Russ Hippert (I think that's the name)had a web site which
provided step by step actions required to adjust the camera to
eliminate this problem. One of the Kiev 60's I have , "had" this
problem.....about two nights ago, with Russ' instructions in hand, I
adjusted my Kiev 60....it took about 30 minutes....problem solved!
And I have to admit that if it was complex, I wouldn't have
tried....it was, very, very, very easy to fix. So , I'm impressed
with the Kiev 60.....Shutterbug called it a 35mm on steroids....I
think that's a fair discription! Incidently, "our own" Bob Shell was
quoted extensively in the Shutterbug articles on the Kiev 60 and Kiev
88....and other medium format cameras being discussed!

While I love my Kiev 60, it will never replace my rangefinders and
35mm SLRs for their compactness and ease of use.  The big advantage
on the Kiev 60 is the "W@W impact".....whip it out and your friends

say, "W@W! What is that thing?"

Best Regards,

Mike Steele
...


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 
From: "tigerarm2000" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Medium Format Kiev 60!

--- In russiancamera@y..., "ganderfive" ganderfive@y... wrote:
> Hello Tom and everyone,
> I'm not an expert regarding Kiev 60's but, if you're in the market
> for a Kiev 60, and want to buy "close to the source", I don't think
> you could go wrong with Anya, Vadim, or Alex (fotoua). All three are
> knowledgable and Kiev 60's. I would also suggest that, at minimum,
> you ask them to "test" the film spacing. While I know you are good at
> fixing things....and the film spacing adjustment is a snap....you
> could save yourself a half hour of effort by making sure the film
> spacing has been tested first! If I was to ever sell Kiev 60's I'd
> have a "test roll" availble, just for testing the spacing. Using Russ
> Huppert's instructions, it would easy to test, and pretty easy to
> adjust, prior to actual listing and sale.
>
> It doesn't exactly inspire confidence, if the buyer pays good money
> for a Kiev 60...which is "working perfectly" only to discover, after
> the first roll is processed, that the film spacing is out of whack' I
> think if you make the plunge into Medium format the Kiev 60 is the
> way to go! While I don't own a Kiev 88, I kind of agree with
> Anya...their best suited for the studio....are more complex....more
> prone to failure...and just don't carry well. While the Kiev 60 is a
> lot large than a traditional 35mm SLR...at least the configuraton is
> the same. It think it would only be a problem if you had small hands
> and just couldn't handle it.....in that case, maybe a TLR is theway
> to go.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Steele

Hi Mike,

I have both Kiev 88 and Kiev 60 and not only one of them(3 Kiev 88s
and 2Kiev 60s,a Salyut C and a Salyut, a Kiev 6C 4.5x6 format).

In my opinion and the general opinions of Chinese Kiev MF users, the
Kiev 60 is a more reliable camera. I find if you wind the film firmly
in one stroke and do not push the film advance lever again, the Kiev
60's film spacing problem could be improved.Because if you try to
push the advancing lever as we sometimes do to make sure the film is
wound, the film in a Kiev 60 would move a little bit resulting in an
uneven spacing.

This may not be the only cause of spacing problem.But if you pay
attention to this, it at least eliminate one of the causes.I shoot
one roll of film recently and the film spacing is very even.

Regards
Zhang




from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

Jon Hart at [email protected] wrote:
> Bob,
> OK, now how about the K60? I noticed lately that
> there are now black-bodied versions available with MLU
> and new flocking. I presume these must have been made
> in the last year. I'm looking to snag one of 'em in a
> couple of months.
>
> Jon
> from Deepinaharta, Georgia

I think K-60 production ceased quite some time ago, but

could be wrong.  I suspect these are "remanufactured"
cameras from old stock.

Bob


from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 
From: "Keith Berry" [email protected]
Subject: Re: PINHOLES IN SHUTTER CURTAINS

The repair guy on the Olympus List recommends 'Liquitex' black fabric paint
applied to the film side of the curtains for pinhole repairs. He's from the USA
and I haven't looked for it here in the UK. Perhaps a Google search could turn
up a stockist in your area.

Regards,
Keith Berry


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 
From: Paul Shinkawa [email protected]
Subject: [Russiancamera] Commie Cameras site

On a subject more to our mutual interests, I read over
on Delphi that Nathan Dayton's site is down
indefinitly. His web host took a year's subscription
fee from him in March and then went South.

His financial situation won't allow him to imeediately
start up again.

-Paul


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 
From: Bob Shell [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Mirror in Hood?

Jim Hemenway at [email protected] wrote:
> It's meant for checking your focus when you are using the sportsfinder,
> I've found it very handy when using the 2.8F for basketball.  It's a
> poor man's prism.


Interestingly, the waist level finder for the Kiev 60 also has this setup.
Since the camera comes with the prism I always wondered why they bothered.

Bob


From: fotocord [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002


[email protected] wrote:

> It seems to me that Kiev 60 prices have been falling on eBay with the
> flood of kits coming in from cash starved Russia (and other Eastern
> European Countries).  I know that folks here have insisted that people
> like me not "cheap out" and go the kievusa way.  But really what's the
> risk in dropping $100 to $200 on a K60 from overseas.  I mean the camera
> isn't going to blow up is it?


As a kiev user I think I can coment here  :-) I am sold on the quality of
the optics in the P-6 mount, just trying to find a body that works can be a
challenge!

I started out by going though two 2001 models before I got tired of this
swap em out game (and argueing about the problems...) and send the last one
to Mark Hama to get one fixed that would work (shutter banding/leaking
issues). Several other small things arose on both along the way but I
didn't want to try to deal with the shutter problems. The cost of this
shutter repair/calibration is as much as an ebay camera costs but it then
does work right

Between dealing with these two, I bough a used K-60 from a guy in russia
and it works better than either of these new ones ever did and it was $50.
I figured a used looking one at least worked well at some point unlike what
can happen with new old stock ones.  I think most of the guys selling these
can be trusted to at least send you the camera. Whether you get a good one
or not is still kinda risky.


I just recieved what I now consider the best option on a kiev. I ordered a
hartblei K-60 SM (mine was labled "hartblei 1006C") with their mirror
lockup with a mirror return lever and it's as smooth as any camera I've
ever used. Shutter speeds are right on, no banding, nice spacing, they
recoat/modify the lens etc etc. If you check out their prices, they are
better than any of the other upgraded (or claimed to be checked/upgraded?)
places and these really are nice.

I can't coment on kiev USA but the people who I've talked with liked their
service, the only down side I see is their prices.

So from someone who has "been there", from my experience, either buy a
"disposable" used one or spend the money on a hartblei one.  Their standard
K-60 kit is only $218, not much more than what you're talking about buying
one from ebay.  IMHO the MLU is worth the extra money as well. It's going
to take a few weeks to get one either of these ways. The advantage of kiev
USA is you are dealing with people in the USA, not people in the ukraine.

The whole deal with these is the lenses are excelent both in price and in
performance. But it seems to use them you need a few bodies on hand to use
them. I suppose any med format system has it's costs and frustration can be
part of the cost of kiev/pentacon ownership. I do feel for someone like me
who can fix most small things and can't afford the other SLR systems, this
is a viable option.
--

Stacey




Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 
From: Mark Kronquist [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HUG] RE: Kiev's : )

My 2 cents in 1993 I visited Kiev and the Kiev factory. I had them build one
for me it has performed like a trooper...so well in fact that I imported
hundreds of Kiev cameras for years and had very good to excellent results.
My DOA rate was about 5-7%

Keep in mind that a Kiev may look like a Hasselblad but it is not one it is
a copy of the 1000F (I have and use one of these as well). Kievs do not have
the smooth function and the elegant fit and finish we expect of a modern
Hasselblad...treated properly (just like a 1000F) they are capable of taking
wonderful images. They are also a great way to explore things we mere
mortals could never afford like the 30mm fisheye.

The later Kievs are better. (first two digits of SN are year made) from a QC
standpoint

While I no longer import them (the Eastern Europeans discovered ebay) Jake
at Blue Moon Camera has a few bits left in stock 503 978 0333.

Mark



From: fotocord [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002


Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> There's no need to buy from Kiev USA either.
>
> Just get your K60 from Forman or Kaplan and Bob's your uncle.


These still depend on your luck.  From what I've experienced (and also read
from others) these 2001 models aren't checked out very well. The first one
I got had shutter banding issues from the first roll that just got worse
(after the DOF lever fell off and then the flash sync died). The last one I
got, the back popped open the first frame I shot! Obviously no one checked
this one out, even at the factory, much less afterwords. Once this minor
back latch issue was fixed/adjusted, I found the shutter was junk, worse
than my first one (Banding as low as 1/125 and also light leaks while
winding).

The $50 used from russia model I got works better than two different new
ones I got from Forman and in the end, paid to get it fixed elsewhere to
end up with a useable camera. So it cost me $450+ to get a new K-60 that
worked which is $60 more than a kievUSA camera and WAY more than the
hartblei version I got later which works perfect. Looking back I should
have throw it in the trash (or saved it for parts) and just replaced the
new body with a rebuilt hartblei one. Some people have had a different
experience/luck with these all black 2001 models and believe they are
flawless. Trust me, they aren't.


I'm not a kiev basher as I still use this stuff on a regular basis and love
the optics. I really like the camera as well, just wasn't impressed with
these 2001 versions Foreman is selling.  I also want people to know what
owning one CAN be like and what my experiences have been buying them at
different places. I can't coment on Kaplan but unless he is personally
testing/rebuilding these before they are sold, I wouldn't expect the
quality control to be any better than any arsenal product that isn't
totally rebuilt before the sale.

So either buy a cheap one from russia, hope it works right but if it
doesn't plan to spend $100-$150 to get it fixed or else just go ahead buy a
hartblei one that has been fixed before it is sold. You might luck up and
save the $150 but I see no reason to pay $300+ for a new one that likely
has problems when you can, for the same money, get one that has already
been rebuilt and REALLY tested by hartblei.
--

Stacey


From: "Tom" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002

 Andrew Price wrote:
> > Do they really test them all, including the standard versions, or only
> > the ones they modify, like their models with special black or leather
> > trim, or mirror lock-up?
> >
> > In other words, if you order a standard Kiev from Hartblei, can you be
> > sure that it has been thoroughly inspected and checked?



This is a quote from their web site, so it seems the answer is yes to the
above.

Tom


The following operations are performed on marketed cameras or their parts
and included in the reworking or repair of Kiev 88 cameras:
1. Fitting an improved shutter braking mechanism for more reliability and
longer camera life.

2. Reassembling and adjusting shutter speed mechanism for precise shutter
operation and exposure times.

3. Fitting a tripod plate for more reliable shutter speed mechanism
operation when using a tripod.

4. Fitting the camera with light-absorbing internal coating for preventing
extraneous light from reaching the negative and causing contrast reduction.

5. Fitting a side shutter release button for smoother shutter release.


6. Reassembling and adjusting film advance mechanism and checking frame
spacing for smoother film advance.

7. Checking magazine light tightness. Replacing the frame if needed.

8. Calibrating camera body's and magazine's working distance and relative
position for body and magazine interchangeability.

9. Checking lens alignment, sharpness, aperture operation and focusing.

10. Disassembling prism viewfinder and eliminating prism lacquering defects.
Performing light gauging control and adjustment, fitting more reliable LEDs.

11. Complete camera inspection and serviceability test.



From: Torsten Wiens [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: stats on Kiev Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002


fotocord schrieb:

> > I've been interfering with that lever a number of times when shooting
> > and do indeed believe this is going to be a problem for other people.
> > Besides design itself, I know for example the MLU lever's placement
> > and functionality on Canon FTbs (while I don't know how it's on
> > OM-1s), and I find this solution to be better.

> Well this is an after thought and I doubt they had too many options on
> where to put it and it still work.

This is just what I wanted to express elsewhere; my insights on this
topic are quite limited, so maybe this is already the best one could
do under the given circumstances (the K-60 hadn't been intended for
MLU anyway?). But, regarding the FTb again: This one has a simple
locking switch that prevents the MLU lever from being moved
unintentionally, and it's quite effective. Something like this
wouldn't have been a big deal to install on the K-60, too.


> I played with mine tonight and don't see
> how you could even touch it when using the camera unless maybe if you're
> holding it sideways if it's a 6X4.5 version? Mine's a 6X6 and holding the
> camera with my left palm under it and focusing with my fingers, that lever
> is never closer than an inch from my thumb.

Then we're obviously just different in, let's call it "operational
priorities". Or my hands are just larger than yours.

> > Now, in case the shutter has been fired the "standard" way, the mirror
> > won't be moved out of its resting position (upwards) easily by that
> > MLU lever; I think this is just the way you'd suspect it to be in
> > other mechanical cameras with MLU. If just the mirror has been fired,
> > the force necessary to move the mirror away from its resting position
> > is *much* less. There's only a very soft touch needed to create a gap
> > between mirror and the foam piece about 0,5mm...1mm wide that won't
> > close because there's obviously not enough tension involved to prevent
> > this.

> Hmm mine doesn't do this and I can't feel any difference in the mirror
> tension when I fire just the mirror or fire it normally.

A very long "Hmm", too. I'm really happy to share another user's
experience on this point, thanks a very lot. On the other hand, I'm
close to in die Tischkante beissen now (because of again increasing
frustration).

> Are you sure yours
> is a real hartblei camera?

The one with the MLU mechanism is from
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/fotowiese/home.htm

I and various other people having bought from him believe he's selling
Hartblei stuff under his own label; there seem to be some indicators
for that. At least he states his "Pentasix" stuff will be modified
(e.g. cloth shutter) and checked, and so is the pricing.

> Does it say hartblei on the nameplate?

It says "KIEV-60" (in cyrillic letters), and it's a '92 model.

> On the
> Delphi forum right now there is a discussion about fake hartblei's being
> sold and the fact that many of these camera's have been modified outside
> the factory in people's homes from parts gained from outside the factory,
> specifically the BIG model you spoke of. These BIG's are NOT a hartblei
> modified camera.

It's not a BIG, in my case. Maybe I'll be giving them a call and ask
for their source, I guess we won't find out else.

Naming the BIGs and Foto Brenner some posts ago was mostly about
comparability of pricing, because their new catalogue just came in the
same day I wrote this. For some time now, new regulations that demand
a 2 year warranty for most new gear being sold are in effect in
Germany (instead of 6 months before). So the pricing should be making
a different kind of economic sense now.

Regards,
Torsten.



From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002

Robert Monaghan wrote:

>
> there is a difference between shutter speed consistency and shutter
> reliability. Lots of older cameras, including the Hassy 1000f and esp.
> 1600f series, are known to have shutter reliability problems, with OEM
> parts long since exhausted for repairs (ditto 2000FC..?). Many of the
> earlier Kievs also had such problems, depending on the model and design.
> My understanding is that these continuing problems were a major reason
> for the switch to leaf shutter lenses and a non-fp design for hassys
> for many years. And for the redesign of the current Kiev shutters which
> have reduced such reliability (and I assume, consistency) problems. 

Are you sure about the cloth shutters being more reliable? From the
research I've done with users of both the cloth shutters and the metal ones
(some users have both styles) showed me the metal shutters have better
reliability as the camera was designed for these and the cloth shutters are
thicker causing their own set of problems, especially banding issues. And
while the NT backs are better, they also aren't free from defects.

>
> As someone noted, the old Japanese cars with poor reputations in the 1970s
> are now among the top reliability cars out there. The Kievs aren't there
> yet; but an improvement from one return in 4 cameras (Sam S.) to 1 in 20
> (Mark K.) in the early 1990s is a pretty big improvement in your odds.

Well I can only coment on the kiev-60's but the new ones seems to be worse
than the older ones. I'm 2 for 2 on dead 2001 models from kievcamera (or
died within weeks, I ended up sending it off for a shutter rebuild to get a
camera that would actually work) and several people on the kiev report
mirror this. This is a simple camera and Sam has told us the older ones had
very good reliability and only a small % of them were DOA.  Again this
mirrors my experience as the two I've bought used from Russia (for less
than $80 each for the whole kit) work perfectly. Actually one kit was $110
for a kit with a 45mm f3.5 lens thrown in!  8-)

The whole problem with this system is getting a good working body. I've
also invested in a couple of the pentacon-6 bodies that are CLA'd from
"cupog" on ebay to try and so far am very impressed with these (around $100
each). These have a known fragile film advance but knowing this being
gentle and NOT letting the advance lever snap back, these are said to hold
up fine. At least they don't have all the shutter issues the kievs do!

IMHO the optics are so good and are so reasonable, it's worth the hassle of
getting a good set of bodies to use them with. YMMV. 
--
  Stacey




From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 26 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: Kiev 6/60 Finders 

Kiev 6C and Kiev 60 finders are fully interchangeable.

The model 60 is just an upgrade of the model 6C.

- Sam Sherman  



From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 6/60 Finders
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002

John Garand wrote:

> I couldn't readily find this particular info on the web, so hope
> someone here (Ms. Stephe?) can supply the correct answer.
>
> Do the Kiev 6C and 60 share the same finder mounting?  Can I count on
> being able to take a prism/wlf from a 6C and put it on a 60 without
> major problems?

 The mountings are suposed to be the same but..... The prism from my K-6C
fits my K-60 but the K-60 prism won't quite latch onto the K-6C. Also one
2001 prism I have won't quite latch onto an early K-60 but the early prism
will latch onto the late body. All it would take is shimming the mount pins
slightly on the ofending bodies to get all the prisms to fit all the
bodies. The WLF don't seem to have any problems. If you need to do this
shimming BE CAREFUL and only grip the pins on the lower portion as they
will break if you grip the top portion when unscrewing them! 
--
  Stacey


From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 camera mount to TAIR-33 lens mount question
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 


Graphic wrote:

>
> Long story,short:  The TAIR arrived yesterday with a non-Pentacon/Kiev
> mount in place (I'm guessing a Kiev88 mount)....PROBLEM: After carefully
> unmounting the 88 mount, I have what looks like a Kiev60 lens mount BUT
> the adapter will not bayonet in place because of what I think is an overly
> long orientation screw/post.

What exactly is the problem? Is it that you can't turn the locking ring? If
so see this page and see if this makes sense.

http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/fit.html
--

  Stacey


From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Saul Kaminsky???
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002


Robert Monaghan wrote:

> see postings below on what Kiev/USA and Hartblei do or don't do in
> "upgrades"
>
> The Soviet consumer photo goods model assumes the final vendor (or
> consumer) will complete lubrication (maybe because some spots like Soviet
> Georgia were pretty warm compared to others parts in Siberia, and the
> lubricants would differ?) and adjustment of the Kiev cameras. This is
> different from the Western or Japanese Q/C model where the cameras are
> shipped ready to shoot, fully lubed and adjusted.
>


This parallels my K-60 experience. Most of the people who have problems
have bought new old stock and just started using them. The new camera I
bought was the one I had problems with (and ended up getting cla'd, which
now works fine) but the two used from russia models (both less than $100
each for the whole kit) and the hartblei one (2nd type MLU, fancy leather
and a hartblei MC lens $380) work perfect.

So it seems if one is willing to buy a camera and get it CLA'd before use,
they get a good working med format camera for cheap with reasonably priced
lenses avalible. If someone doesn't want to do this =after the sale CLA=
and thinks there is something wrong with a camera that you have to do this,
DON'T BUY ONE!!!!!  It's that simple.

I personally can't see the big deal with paying $100 for a camera + ~$145
for a CLA (Mark Hama's price for a total shutter rebuild) to get a good
working med formal SLR but YMMV. Even if I end up having to have it cla'd
once a year, I don't consider that a big deal. I don't mind carrying a back
up body as well. If this bothers someone, they shouldn't buy a kiev nor
even consider them as an option and spend the money it takes to not have to
spend this money .

 I don't think anyone is candy coating these but they can be a viable
option for a med format SLR.
--
  Stacey


From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Does Blad have a Carl Zeiss exclusive?
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002


Q.G. de Bakker wrote:
> Were these Kiev 60s original products right from the start? Or were these
> too "appropriated" designs the Soviets "improved" upon?

These were basically an original design. They share the same lens mount
(kinda the screw mount of med format?) but after the basic shape, they
aren't really close to a pentacon-6. The early 6-C had the shutter on the
left side, has two rolloers on the flim gate instead of the P-6's one, the
body is larger and has a much "stronger" film advance mechanism. The focus
screen is much larger (55.8mm over a 51mm one), the prisms and finders are
better/different and the shutters aren't the same mechanically either
beside both being cloth focal plane designs. IMHO the P-6 is contructed
better (and needs to be given it's design) while the K-60 is a better
design, just not contructed as well but works OK despite of this 

>From what I read, the russians wanted a camera to use in space and even
they knew a K-88 wasn't something you want to take that far from home
without a backup :-)
--
  Stacey



From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 info
Date: 23 Aug 2002 


Hi, Andrea.

Congratulations on your purchase.

The Kiev 60 (or even 88 line) *can* provide excellent results at
bargain basement prices.  It does have a bit to do with your
expectations, luck, determination, and attitude.

> seems like the main drawback of these cameras is reliability. is that true?

I'd say, "yes."  But there may not be a whole lot you can do about it.

Well, you could send the camera in for a CLA (cleaning, lubrication,
adjustment)... but if it's working fine now and doesn't show signs of
abuse or major use, you might want to just leave it alone.  The CLA
could easily cost more than the camera itself.

> there's no mirror lock up. i read somewhere this could cause sharpness loss
> in photos.


MLU (mirror lock-up) is probably not of any benefit under most
"normal" shooting situations.

Where MLU will be of benefit is usually: doing close-up/macro
photography where any camera shake can lead to soft images and extreme
telephoto photography for the same reasons.

> what about the TTL light meter? i was trying to use it but seems like it
> tells me to use faster shutter times (2 stops) than my other 35mm 'modern'
> camera? is that reliable? should i use an external exposimeter?

Did you set it properly?  There is a red arrow, and this must point to
the maximum aperture of the lens attached...  So if you are using the
80mm lens that came with the camera, the red arrow should point to
"2.8".  Then turn the dial until it tells you your exposure is okay.

That's the process in a nutshell.  You might want to have a look at:
http://kievaholic.com/meters.html

Good luck!

-Kevin



From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 
From: "john_cribbin" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Long times on Kiev 60

Hi Eugen,

The best place for you to start, is Russ Hibberts 'Kiev Kalibration'
site. It has full details on how to set up a Kiev 60 including
shutter adjustment. If you follow the set up instructions, you will
be able to find out if the camera is just badly set up, or does have
a shutter defect.

I have 3 K60's all of which are spot on at 1/30, but only show approx
1/500 at the 1/1000 setting. Maybe someone has 'wound up' the shutter
tension to improve the shorter speeds, which has thrown out the
longer speeds.

The link you want is : http://kievaholic.com/kiev60kalibration.html

Good luck

John


From: "Bill Karoly" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 info
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002


Great camera and you cannot beat the price for the lenses. You may need to
flock the interior. A good test is to shoot a roll into the sun. Shoot
back-lit subjects. I have a Kiev 60 and it's a great camera.

I had to flock the interior of my two Kiev 60's. I got some reflections off
of the bright metal parts inside the camera. The standard paint used by the
factory is semi-gloss dark grey. I used Ultra Black Flat spray paint as
follows:

Spray a small amount into a paper cup. Using a very small model airplane
paint brush paint the interior of the camera. Make sure the shutter is in
the B position and the mirror is up and shutter wide open. Paint the entire
interior. be careful with the moving parts. after you have painted the
inside of the camera be sure and work the camera. wind it up and fire it
several times to prevent moving parts from sticking.

Lens quality can be very good. Consider what a comparable Hassy lens costs
to what you will pay. The 80mm lens is a good lens with one major flaw. The
depth of field preview lever allows light to leak into the camera and cause
problems. Cover it with black tape.

Bill

"Andrea" [email protected] wrote...
> Hi all,
> i just got a used Kiev60 in budapest for good price (110$), kit included
> (filters+pentaprism TTL light meter+2,8 80 lens). I just bought cause i
> liked the idea of getting a MF camera at a cheap price.
>
> i just got the prints from the first film. they look great, sharp and no
> traces of problems (light stripes, etc...). i think to understand the actual
> quality level i should get photos enlarged.
>
> i wanna ask to you experts: how is this camera  in general? obviously it
> can't compare with an hasselblad or other high level brands, i know that.
> but is it worth to try to get other lenses and accessories for that?
>
> seems like the main drawback of these cameras is reliability. is that true?
>
> do u have any advices on how to minimize the rick of damage, if what i said
> above is true?
>
> there's no mirror lock up. i read somewhere this could cause sharpness loss
> in photos. does that happen just in B pose or also with normal timing (i
> shot these test pictures at 125 and 250 and they look really sharp)?
>
> what about the TTL light meter? i was trying to use it but seems like it
> tells me to use faster shutter times (2 stops) than my other 35mm 'modern'
> camera? is that reliable? should i use an external exposimeter?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Andrea



From: "Sherman" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 info
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002

...(quotes above post)


Andrea,
I have a Kiev 88cm not a 60 but I can comment on the lenses.  In general the
Kiev lenses are very good.  The 30mm, 65mm, 80mm, 120mm and 250mm 5.6 (not
the 3.5) are excellent.  The 45mm and the aforementioned 250 3.5 are less
than stellar performers.  The 150mm is probably middle of the road but mine
seems quite sharp and contrasty.

In addition to the Kiev lenses there are a number of excellent Zeiss lenses
that will fit the K60.  The 50mm Flektogon and the 180mm Sonnar are
particularly nice if they are the multicoated versions.

Reliability is the main problem with Kiev bodies.  The K60 should be a
little less problematic than the K88 because it is a simpler design.  Treat
it with care and it should be fine.

Mirror lockup is a nice feature to have.  You can elminate a lot of camera
shake by using a good sturdy tripod.  I shoot with mine on a tripod about
95% of the time and have been extremely pleased with the results.  Still, my
next body will have mirror lockup as I like to shoot macro and closeups at
relatively slow shutter speeds.

Enjoy your new camera and have fun!

Sherman


From: "Graphic" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: All mysteries solved Re: TAIR-33 lens mount(s) id's needed
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 


> > ** jpeg avilable on request**

All mysteries solved!

1. The "fixed" mount on the Tair 33 is a Salyut "interrupted
thread"/"multi-start" mount.  I was told by one respondent That only 1-in-50
Tair-33's were produced with the K60 mount instead of the prevalent Salyut
mount.

2. the middle adapter is a K60 (old-style factory original that will not
take all Pentacon lenses unless the locking ring is replaced with an updated
versionj)

3. the adapter on the right is a K60 lens to Mamiya645 body adapter.  We
think we also found a discrepancy in the film registration distance charts
on
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mounts.htm which advises that the M645
distance should be 63.3mm, when in practice the M645 adapter extends the k60
extension an additional  approximately 13.8mm, which would be ~3mm too far
per the chart (if the K60 listed extension is correct!...and our math is
coerrect), although in practice, infinity focus is fine per my correpondent.

Now to find a little time to try out the new toy!!!

Thanks again to all who helped,

Wayne C.
...


From: [email protected] (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 

[email protected] (Robert Monaghan)
wrote:

>actually, I'm wondering if Russians and/or Ukrainians are still producing
>cameras at all? Seriously. It appears the production lines are mostly shut
>down for many models, and even the kiev88 seems to be on again/off again?
>
>Anybody have more definitive data on current status of production? Thanks!
>
>bobm....

Kievs are made at an arsenal.  They produce alot of stuff including
military gear, movie cameras (16mm) the Kiev 88 line, the Kiev 60
line, 35mm with Nikon mounts, a wide field camera and some subminiture
stuff in 110 and 16mm.  I don't know if the copy of the Rollie 35mm is
still going or not???  Arsenal also make binoculars and telescopes I'm
told.

In Russia there are a few things made mainly the ZENIT 35mm line and
the 120 TLR Lubitel.

THOM


From: [email protected] (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: 1 Sep 2002


Hi, Bob.

As far as I know, the Kiev 60 was put back into production sometime
last year or early this year.  Apparently production *was* stopped for
a while as they tried to get rid of excess inventory... but recently
people have been picking up new cameras with new serial numbers,
indicating that production has resumed.
(the message you quoted was from April 2001... so at that time,
perhaps it was correct)

The old screw-mount Kiev 88 has apparently been phased out, being
replaced by the newer Kiev 88CM which has a breech-lock mount based on
the Kiev 60.  This camera is still in production as far as I know.

However, production of lenses has apparently been scaled back and they
are not at any given time producing the entire line of lenses.

I was told the 30mm Arsat is still being made along with the 80mm
normal lens.  Production of the 250mm F3.5 lens was resumed for a
while, but I don't know if it is currently being made.

I'm not sure if the 45mm or 150mm lenses are being produced...
although, they are still available at least as New Old Stock or on the
used market.

Sorry... no information on the 35mm cameras...  But I read recently
that they were producing a 300mm F2.8 lens in Nikon mount.  Perhaps
they have given up on making 35mm bodies, but are still trying to make
some lenses?

-Kevin
...


From: [email protected] (Scott M. Knowles)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: 2 Sep 2002

...(quotes above)
> they have given up on making 35mm bodies, but are still trying to make
> some lenses?
>
> -Kevin

The 80mm lens is also being mated to a Tilt-Shift mechanism and 35mm
camera mount (you select the brand/model lens mount).  The Tilt-Shift
mechanism is a simple screw thread for tilt (+/- 8 degree) and shift
(11 degree one direction).  It has 30 degree rotation click stops to
change the tilt-shift.  The camera mount, at least for mine (Minolta
manual focus), was good but snuggness varied with the camera from too
tight to too loose, something I don't find with other lenses.

Good luck.

--Scott--


From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Flocking Kiev60
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002


Torsten Wiens wrote:

> the Kiev60 has
> reflection issues, other gear hasn't.

Bold statment. I've had reflection problems with all sorts of older gear at
one time or another.

> This is basic photographic knowledge, but is even more important as
> Kiev lenses are usually quite sensitive for this kind of problems due
> to their sometimes suboptimal coating.

No more "sub-optimal" as many other older lenses. The later MC lenses are
better than any of the older single coated optics.

I've found what is ussually blamed as "flare" on kievs is problems with
their shutters. The have problems with light leaks between the curtains
when winding and can make all sorts of weird blotches that look like flare.
Test this by removing the lens, shining a birght light in a dark room into
the lens mount and wind the camera watching the gap between the shutter
curtains.  Best way to avoid this it to cover the lens when winding and see
if the "flare" goes away. Also some flat black paint on the bottom of the
mirror box and underside of the mirror itself won't hurt anything.
--
  Stacey, who has seen about any problem you can imagine and the lens
coatings aren't the cause..


From: Torsten Wiens [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Flocking Kiev60
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002


Andrea schrieb:

> I shot some pictures. the camera works great..

Still... (SCNR)

> some of you pointed out the
> internal light reflections problems of this kind of cameras, and told me a
> way to flock the interior with black paint. i also saw some flocking kits on
> the internet made with adhesive velvet fabric.
> In facts, since the pictures i shot were basically back lit at sunset
> (portrait - like), there are, in some of them, weird light effects (not
> really flares, but 'stains' of light). note that the sun was IN the affected
> pictures. actually it was the first time i shot portraits which included the
> sun too, so i don't know if this is normal or due to internal camera
> unwanted reflections.

Including strong light sources in the frame will generate flare
('weird light effects') with almost any lens in some way. On
Kiev/Zeiss Jena lenses, this will be even more evident, most of them
can be somewhat problematic in high-contrast situations (if not
handled carefully). To find out if your camera's inside needs flocking
or painting, just go on and shoot some more pictures (somewhat
'normal' lighting, no backlight), best on transparency film, and
examine closely for 'weird light effects' or overall contrast
problems. http://www.baierfoto.de has two pictures of typical image
defects caused by reflective camera insides.

Best anyway would be just to get baierfoto.de's flocking kit; it's
only about 10$ and you're a lot out of trouble when installed.

> yesterday for the first time i checked the interior of my camera. i removed
> the lens (Arsat 80 mm). the inner sides are all painted in black (they told
> me the default factory colour is light grey, which causes the reflections),
> including moving parts. i also noted that the light coming from the room
> lamp caused some small reflections on the shutter fabric area, which i
> really didn't understand where they came from since it was all painted
> black.

> my questions are:
> 1-do you think my camera is already flocked?

Hard to tell from the distance. Other MF cameras have quite similar
construction and coloring of their mirror housing; the Kiev60 has
reflection issues, other gear hasn't. There's also different versions
of the mirror housing's coloring out there; on newer ones, the problem
isn't that evident.

> 2-is it normal to have such reflections when shooting really 'against' the
> sun?


Yes. Basically, there's two possibilities for flare and 'weird
effects' to come up:

(a) In the Kiev's mirror housing, which is avoidable by
flocking/painting it.

(b) Inside the lens, which is reducable by putting an appropriate
sunshade on or by shielding the lens with your body's shadow or by
shooting from a shadowed area. Backlight situations should be avoided
or carefully controlled (keep light source out of frame/away from the
lens or use a black flag, having an assistant may be quite useful for
this). Even try to be carefull with large areas of reflective surfaces
in your frame; a sunlit white wall may already cause flare on the
Arsat.

This is basic photographic knowledge, but is even more important as
Kiev lenses are usually quite sensitive for this kind of problems due
to their sometimes suboptimal coating.

Anyway, you may want to avoid including the sun in your pictures since
the Kiev-60 has no instant return mirror and there's the danger of
burning holes into the shutter curtains (due to some 'burning glass'
effect); but this is also said in the manual.

HTH,
Torsten.



From: "Parlin 44" [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Diopters for Kiev 60?
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 

All you need is a lens small enough to fit inside prism eye-cup, I used a
diopter for manual Nikon Fx (FG/FE???) series, with the lens taken off the
plastic bracket, unscrew the K-60 prism eye-cup and stick the lens with
doublesided tape, screw the eye-cup back and you're done.

hope it helps,
parlin

quoting:
From: Clayton Ravsten 
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]
Subject: [Russiancamera] Diopters for Kiev 60?
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 

Does anyone out there know how to install some type of diopter to the prism
of a Kiev 60?  I need a little help focusing.  I usually have a .5+ on my
other cameras.  Any and all input is greatly appreciated.



Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] First CLA
From: John Cribbin [email protected]

Hi Owen,

I can certainly go along with Kevin's comments on the K60 Vs K88. If you can
live without interchangeable backs, then the K60 is the way to go. as kevin
says, it has it's problems, but most of these can be sorted with a decent
set of jewellers spanners and online instructions.

They are built like tanks, the only problem is getting hold of one which may
not have been abused over the years. The Hartblei ones certainly have a good
reputation if you are buying new, buying on Ebay is always a bit hit and
miss, but there's always Anya, she sold me a 'new' 1992 model which was old
stock from a photography store. Apart from some basic adjustments, all I had
to do was keep firing the shutter at various speeds to get the lubricants
working, it's a great camera.

As for Ansell Adams, buy one, fit it with Carl Zeiss 50 f4 Flektogon and you
will believe.

John



Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek [email protected]
To: Russian camera list [email protected]
Subject: [Russiancamera] Oscar Fricke article on FED

Hi, you scurvy bunch,

A friend, Alfred K, advised me that our very own 'Fedka' has an
historical article from the expert Oscar Fricke on his site. This is
really a "must read". so do go it, and read it!!

http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Commune_by_Fricke/commune_A.htm

If you don't. I WILL twist your arm!)

Seriously though, this IS a great article. Oscar has been very helpful
to me and the fact that he let Yuri post this is a really great thing.
please read it. It is most interesting.

Regards,
Kevin K



From: fotocord [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 owners... (or connoisseurs)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 


Andrea wrote:
>>With or without film or both?
> good question: without.

Not good... Something is in need of lube.

> obviously i would have no idea on which part can need lubrication.. i'll
> check it more thouroughly tonight..


http://www.kievaholic.com/kiev60kalibration.html is a start. Another
tip, an piece of an old innertube from a bicycle works great for getting
the film reminder ring unscrewed. It's the outer part that needs to be
removed and is the only tricky part about getting the top plate off.

Stacey



Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 
From: Dale Dickerson [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 returned to production fall of 2001

Hi,

Kiev 60 production resumed in fall of 2001. New cameras are all black.
They are new production and not new old stock.

Dale

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

>A 02? I thought the K60 production has been stopped definetily!
>Does one of you know more ? Maybe those are rebuild/improved and rebadged
>cameras?



Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 
To: Russiancamera-user [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 returned to production fall of 2001
From: "Roman J. Rohleder" [email protected]

Hallo Dale,

Thanks for that fast response!

> Kiev 60 production resumed in fall of 2001.

All _rumours_ I have heard so far claimed that production ceased in mid-2001
- maybe Arsenal Zavod just delayed the production to implement changes?

May I ask for your source? You kno, it somehow nagged on me when I heared
that they stopped the K60 production - I took it as an omen for the rest of
Zavod Arsenal camera production.


> New cameras are
> all black. They are new production and not new old stock.

Did they change anything else on the design?

> Dale

Danke!

Gruss, Roman


Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 
From: Dale Dickerson [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 returned to production fall of 2001


Roman J. Rohleder wrote:
>Hallo Dale,
>Thanks for that fast response!

You are welcome. It was just the timing of when I go  on line.

>>Kiev 60 production resumed in fall of 2001.
>All _rumours_ I have heard so far claimed that production ceased in mid-2001
>- maybe Arsenal Zavod just delayed the production to implement changes?

They are trying for Sping 2001. However production start up was  slow.

>May I ask for your source? You kno, it somehow nagged on me when I heared
>that they stopped the K60 production - I took it as an omen for the rest of
>Zavod Arsenal camera production.

I was talking with Mike at KievCamera last winter about the Kiev 60.
..
>Did they change anything else on the design?

I do not remember visit www.kievcamera.com

Dale


From russian camera mailing list:
From: "Per Backman" [email protected]
To: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 lens doubt

Vega is a five element construction, Volna a six element. The Volna is more
compact built, probably better, I have not used the Vega enough to say.

Kiev 60 is better than a Pentacon Six, it does not have the same problems with
film transport. If the filmtransport in a Pentaconsix brakes it is nearly
impossible to repair it.

The Kiev has a much better pentaprism than the Pentaconsix and a  brighter
viewfinderscreen.

Kiev6S has a left hand release, can be a problem to get used to, and a worse
viewfinder screen than the Kiev60. It can use 220-film, which Kiev60 can not,
but it may be a cause of problems.

I would prefer a Kiev60 rather than  a 6S and certainly than a Pentaconsix.

Per
...


Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 07:44:24 -0800 (PST)
To: Russiancamera-user 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 lens doubt
From: Paul Shinkawa 
Reply-To: [email protected]

Fernando:

Most of my medium format photography over 40 years or so was done with
folding 120 cameras and TLR's. I've used a Mamiya C-33 for the longest
period and probably most number of exposures. I bought a used one in 1985
when our first child was born for all of the "milestone" pictures. I've also
used Yashicas, Rolleicords and R'flexes along with a Welta, Isolette, Moskva
and Iskra.

I bought a K-60 last December for a $105.00 and was very pleasantly
surpised. First, it worked great. Only the 1/1000 shutter speed sticks and
the frame spacing overlaps very slightly with Fuji film. Both are fixable
problems. It has a working TTL meter, but I don't use it. I will one of
these days.

The best things about the K-60 over my TLR's is (1) the viewfinder prism
with the 80mm Volna (same as Arsat I think) is much brighter than the
Mamiya's porroprism and waistlevel finders, (2) It is easy to grip and the
extra weight helps to hold it steady, and (3) children are very curious
about such a hulking monster and will actually stop and stare. That's great
for things like group pictures on a school fieldtrip.

The worst thing is the 1/30 second flash sync. That's where leaf shutter
cameras win.

If you can, try to get the basic outfit with the WL finder and eyelevel TTL
prism. The flash shoe accessory is also useful, although it balances a lot
better with a potato masher type of flash like a Sunpak 622. I had trouble
finding a good neckstrap (this thing is very heavy) because it uses button
lugs rather than eyelets. Marc James Small on this forum helped me out when
he explained that it uses Hasselblad compatible straps.

Oh yes, unlike most 35mm SLR's the K-60 does not have a rapid return mirror.
That's not a problem for me having used Exaktas for so many years, but some
people can't abide with that limitation.

Hope this helps you to decide.

-Paul


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 
From: Robert Svensson [email protected]
Subject: Re: a future 88 owner asks...

I have two K60. They is for sure ugly monsters! Taken into consideration that
there is no exchangeable back, it is a very reliable camera and it is very okay
to use it free-hand which is more or less impossible with K88! They scare kids
and old ladies, but I like them anyhow! -The picture quality is of course out of
discussion. I mix pics from my K60s and my Hassy. I make pics in 30x40 cm� size
B&W prints. Nobody can see the which comes from what camera....

/Robert
...


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 
From: "Gene Poon" [email protected]
Subject: UPDATE Re: The Incredible Superglue Mirror Trick

Here's an update on the Kiev 60 with the broken mirror that I glued
back together...

I have ordered two Kiev 60 mirrors from a Ukrainian dealer who says
he can get parts from Arsenal.  $10 each, no freight when added to an
order for a lens and some accessories.

Meanwhile I have replaced the glued-together Kiev 60 mirror with one
from a Mamiya 645.  I couldn't tell you which specific model Mamiya
645, since all that was left of it in a camera repair junk box was
the stripped-out hulk, with an intact mirror.  It is shaped like a
keystone, identically to the Kiev mirror and exactly the same width
and thickness and taper, but about 3mm shorter at the bottom. This
means the Kiev mirror clips only grip the Mamiya mirror by about half
their width, but they are plenty secure, especially if I put a dab or
two of rubber cement under the mirror, to hold it down yet leave it
able to be released when the real Kiev mirrors show up.  So even if
it turns out the dealer can't get me the mirrors, the Kiev has an
intact mirror again.  The cracked one didn't fall apart when I took
it out, so the super-glued joints are still sound.

One thing I almost forgot to do...the "windows" in the underside of
the Kiev 60 mirror bracket are actually holes; what you see in
the "windows" is the back of the mirror.  I had to paint the backside
of the Mamiya 645 mirror with flat black paint before installation of
the mirror.

-Gene Poon


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 TTl Prism with a Mamiya 330f?
Date: 10 Dec 2002

[email protected] (F.T.Knapik) wrote:

>Hello. I am considering the purchase of a metered Kiev 88 prism from
>Baier Fototechnik for my Mamiya 330f. Does anyone have any experience
>with this rig?

I can coment on the quality of their adapters. I bought a kiev-60 to
pentacon 6 prism adapter and it was a very nicely made piece. Also I
can't coment on the K-88 prism but the newer K-60 prisms are very
bright compared to the older techology prisms made by other people
(I've looked through the older rolleis and the pentacons and they are
very dim compared to these) and the meter is accurate and easy to use.


Stacey


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 
From: Bruce Feist [email protected]
Subject: Re: spare parts to Russian cameras

There's a Yahoo group/mailing list especially for such things.  Check
out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/russian_camera_parts .

Bruce Feist



From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 28 Feb 2003 
Subject: Re: kiev 6s

Today a good Kiev 6C with TTL finder, 90MM f2.8 normal lens and case
should sell for $100 to $175 depending on condition, warranty and who you are
buying it from.

The 120MM Biometar or 120MM Vega lens should sell for $120 to $175 depending on
condition etc.

The 300MM lenses available are-

TAIR - $100 to $150
PENTACON/ORESTEGOR - $100-$135
Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar - preset or automatic(single coated) $$125-$175
same as automatic multicoated ($200-$350)

These are only my estimates. The Kiev 6C (6S) can be a great camera
in a sample that works well.

- Sam Sherman


From kiev88 Mailing list:
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 
From: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Subject: RE: B-mount to P6 adapter

Greg,

You can get those adapters, and they are worth having, from Mike Fourman -

www.kievcamera.com

They give perfect infinity focus on P6 cameras, which is most important,
but on winding
the diaphragm does not open fully.

I think this is a small price to pay for being able to use the Old B lenses
on P6 with true
infinity focus.

- Sam Sherman



From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 13 May 2003
Subject: Re: Russian Equipment Curiosity

Many Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 6x6cm SLR (Ukranian. not Russian) cameras have left
the factory with the finder viewing screen out of alignment with the image the
film is receiving. It is near impossible to get critically sharp photos with
such cameras.

Once the viewing screens are aligned, the original Arsenal/Arsat lenses
and the Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in Kiev 60/P6 mount are generally very good and
sharp. With a good example of these lenses, and a camera
properly aligned, you will be hard pressed to see any difference in
sharpness between Kiev and Mamiya cameras.

For examples of very sharp images from Kiev medium format cameras
just go through this site-

www.kievaholic.com

- Sam Sherman



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: K88-P6 adapter

The K-88 to P-6 adapter that I have works in auto aperature mode on my Kiev 60. I think I got it from GrizzlyBear.
-brine


From: Mergen Mongush [[email protected]] 
Sent: Wed 6/11/2003
To: Monaghan, Robert 
Subject: a remark


Dear Mr Monaghan,

I have been using my Kiev-60 since 1995 and the reason I had chosen it was
this -- a Muscovite photographer told me that:

1) the more simple a camera the more reliable it is;

2) the Kiev-60, unlike more sophisticated back of the Kiev-80, flattens the
film more evenly enabling to take wonderful shots at 2.8 aperture.

The only problem for medium-format camera user here, in Moscow, is the lack
of labs printing from 120 films.

With best wishes
Mergen Mongush


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev60 light leakage
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003

Andrea wrote:
>> It's caused by light reflecting off the left =shutter= roller (not the ones
>> on the film gate like many people say) and then the light is going
>> between the gap in the shutter curtain when it's in the cocked position.
>> The easiest "fix" is to change lenses BEFORE you wind the camera to the
>> next frame.
>
> mmm... i'm not sure, but i have the suspect that it may happen in both
> cases (shutter cocked and uncocked). i will pay attention and check with
> this roll and i'll let you know.
> thanks anyway!

Easy to prove it to yourself without film. Open the back with the shutter
cocked in a darkened room and shine a flashlight into the lensmount, you'll
see the leak. Fire the shutter and you'll see if it's gone. That's how I
found it.

>> It's best NOT to fool with these cameras when they are working right!
>> :-)
> Right :-) that's why when i realized that the pin on the camera which
> pushes the lenses diaphragm pin on the lens is not working 100% with one
> of the lenses, i decided to leave it as it is :-)

Now that is a safe thing to adjust, you do have to loosen the jam nut behind
the lever first..
--
Stacey


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev60 light leakage
Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 

Andrea wrote:

> hi all,
> i always thought that my Kiev60 was a lucky one, since i never had all the
> problems people usually complain about when talking about kiev cameras.
> but lately i found out that when i switch lens, i have light intrusions.
> in particular the light goes through to the film when the camera is
> without lens. and i get a faded stripe on the frame in the film.
>
> the only thing i can do to avoid this at the moment is wasting a frame
> each time i switch lens.

Read below.. It's a common problem.
> did anybody experience this kind of problem? if yes, is it something i can
> easily fix by myself at home? how?

It's caused by light reflecting off the left =shutter= roller (not the ones
on the film gate like many people say) and then the light is going between
the gap in the shutter curtain when it's in the cocked position. The
easiest "fix" is to change lenses BEFORE you wind the camera to the next
frame.

It's best NOT to fool with these cameras when they are working right! :-)
--
Stacey



From: Andrew Price [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: All that Kiev88 stuff for sale on ebay
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 

Stacey [email protected] wrote:

>Besides not allowing the wind lever to snap back (bad for a K-60 and a P6)
>
>http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/pentaconfix.html
>
>This avoids the counter/spacing issue that gave the P6 a bad name (and made
>the optics cheap!)
>
>I've bought a couple of P-6's real cheap that had "overlapping frames" and
>all I do is wind them like this and they work perfectly. The film speed is
>a K88 thing.

Many thanks to both Ralph and yourself for that - there's a P-6 I've
had my eye on for a while, but I was unsure of the true nature of the
winding problem. If it's only that, then I think I'll give it a try.


From: "Sherman" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: In Praise of Pentacon 6X6 Cameras
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003


"Stacey" [email protected] wrote
> Andrew Price wrote:
> > [email protected] (Tony H) wrote:
> >
> >>>There are many older excellent East German lenses; Sonar 180, 300, and
> >>>Russian ones as well. The lenses do not require you to mortgage your
> >>>house and they are still capable of awesome images.
> >>>
> >>All very true, but then I guess you haven't hit the frame overlap
> >>problem yet....... but you will eventually.
> >
> > Stacey posted a winding technique to get around this problem:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/pentaconfix.html
>
> Yep and works 100% of the time. Shame (or a good thing for me?) that this
> winder problem was never fixed.
> --
> Stacey

I have just purchased a Fed 5C (Russian 35mm Leica screw mount rangefinder)
and though there are no frame spacing problems using your "easy wind, slow
release" technique seems to ensure that a single wind of the lever fully
advances the film and cocks the camera. Letting the lever go too quickly
can result in the shutter not being properly cocked requiring another 1/2
swing of the lever (though film spacing is strangely unaffected).

Maybe Russians just have a kinder, gentler winding technique? Anyway the
technique seems good even for cameras without spacing problems.

Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.com


From: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 or alike?
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 

Andrew Price [email protected] wrote:
>Stacey [email protected] wrote:
>
>[---]
>
>>I'd
>>stay away from the K-88 unless you plan on spending some fairly serious
>>cash as these have MANY more problems than the K-60 and the normal ones
>>don't accept the Zeiss lenses. 
>
>Grrrr. The K-60s don't accept some of them either, unless you drill
>out the registration pin slot on the camera, or file down the pin. I
>hate doing that to a CZJ lens.

The trick is to get some of the incredibly cheap extension tubes for
the K60. Swap out the pins with the CZJ lens pin. Mark the spot on the
replacement pin, do the pin filing while screwed back into the tube,
then return it to the CJZ. This leaves no filing marks or debris on
the CZJ, and you still keep the original pin.

headscratcher


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 or alike?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 

redcat wrote:
> Stacey,
> where did you order the straight-from-russia Kievs?

Ebay, as I said the used ones are what you want NOT a new one. At least a
used one worked at some point to become used! ;-) Several I've bought were
from individuals in russia and while shipping takes a while, never had any
problems. The weird packaging is almost worth buying one!

> $80 is a pretty
> interesting price to pay for one. would that be the Kiev 60 or 88 you are
> talking about?

K-60 and/or K-6C. Personally feel the K-6C is a better made camera but does
have the odd left hand shutter release that takes some getting used to.
Plus the K-60 has a better focus screen and the pre-95 models (the first 2
digits of the serial numer is the year) have a much nicer WLF as well. I'd
stay away from the K-88 unless you plan on spending some fairly serious
cash as these have MANY more problems than the K-60 and the normal ones
don't accept the Zeiss lenses. 
--
Stacey


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 60 or alike?
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 

Dave wrote:
> These cameras can be quite reliable, depending somewhat on where you get
> them, if buying new. Mike Fourman at kievcamera.com has an EXCELLENT
> reputation and offers an upgraded version with a warranty. Mike has a
> close relationship with the Arsenal factory and gets the
> cream-of-the-crop off the production line. 

The 3 DOA ones I got from him seemed to say something different? I ended up
paying to get the last fixed so I could have a useable camera. He's sold
quite a few lately with the "back latch" problem where the back pops open
when the shutter is fired so if these are "checked out" as he claims or
"the cream of the crop" as you said, I'd hate to see what the others are
like? I can promise you no one has checked these out or I wouldn't have
gotten 3 dead ones in a row.

IMHO I've had MUCH better luck with the super cheap straight from russia
used samples, the 3 I've bought all work perfect and the whole kit was
under $80. Many people have had problems with the new all black 2000 and
later year model cameras and after seeing the inside of both, the new ones
are made much cheaper. If I was going to spend $300 on a new one, I'd be
talking to the people at Arax camera as they fix/upgrade them themselves
instead of reselling them out of an apartment and just sending another dead
one to replace a dead one....

http://araxfoto.com/

Unless the dealer repairs the one he sold you rather than swapping out
cameras hoping at some point you get one that works, the warranty is
worthless as you'll likely never end up with a camera that works. The
quality control at arsenal is that bad! I think over there they know the
camera isn't going to work right out of the box and everyone just assumes
the camera shop will setup the camera before it is sold. That's why the
used cameras from over there seem to work fine?

Hartblei makes a very nice camera as well but they seem to no longer be
making cameras (?) and the delivery from their website is sketchy.
--
Stacey


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 
From: "zone_iii_03" [email protected]
Subject: Re: Arax cameras

James,
Thank you for your comments. I sent Georg Varatanyan at Arax the
same inquiry and he confirms what you said in your post. I bought a
Nikon-P6 adapter from DVDtechnik which appears to use a similar
mechanism to lock the P-6 lens to the Nikon camera mount. It's a
very nicely made piece of equipment and is much easier to use than
the Kiev-style clamping lever.

Jim


Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003
From: Bruce Feist [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 body
To: Russian Camera Users [email protected]

Vernon L Rogers wrote:

>I am interested in getting a Kiev 60 body with waist level finder at a good
>price, or even a trade for one of the Russian cameras I have. I have 3 P6
>mount lenses I would like to use it with. If anyone has one or knows of any
>in nice condition, please let me know off list.

Consider a 6C instead of the 60. Its layout isn't quite as good, but it
allows you to use 220 film. IMO, that makes up for its other sins.

Bruce Feist


From: Stacey [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Hartbeli story was Re: a12 and a12 with 12 release?
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 


Bandicoot wrote:

> "Stacey" [email protected] wrote
> [SNIP]
>> I'll make a better report once I get a good back for it and use it more.
>> I think using blad backs via a hartblei 1006 is the only way to attempt
>> to use a K88. Otherwise the K60/pentacon-6 is a much better option.
>>
>
> Thanks - very interesting. I use P6/E66 bodies, but am wondering about
> getting a Hartblei for the studio, partly for MLU and partly so I can use
> a Polaroid back on it.
>
> Where did you get yours? Ordered via the Hartblei site or somewhere else?

Somewhere else... It's kinda a funny story. Ran into this guy on the
kievreport delphi forum who personally knows the owner of the "real"
Hartblei. He got me a returnable MLU K60 that still works perfect after 2
year of use. Anyway about a year ago I ordered a 1006M from him and after a
couple of months we both gave up on it ever showing up. Well a year later
it showed up at his house! The hartblei site isn't really conected to the
"real" hartblei anymore but lately their are reports they are again? Some
people have had good luck with the hartblei website, others haven't so
don't know what to tell ya on that one..

Here's the closest thing to an explaination of the Hartblei story copied
from the kiev forum.

--------------------

1. Hartblei.com was registered at a time when Serguey Naumenko and the
Pissarenko brothers were doing business together. The domain name was
registered by Alexander Pissarenko and he put it in his own name, securing
his ownership of the "Hartblei" internet presence.


2. Naumenko and the Pissarenko brothers parted ways on less than friendly
terms. Naumenko returned to Kiev to restart his operations. The Pissarenkos
retained the Hartblei.com domain name and continue to do business with it.
They seem to receive goods from many different sources -- some of which are
perhaps current or former employees of Naumenko.


3. KievCamera became the official US representative of Hartblei, but Mike is
not bound to Hartblei and does not have to carry all of their products nor
push them exclusively.


4. Mike does not like to sell cameras with aftermarket MLU added. I believe
he feels the aftermarket jobs are unreliable in the long run. I am inclined
to agree based on my experience with these cameras (four different MLU
bodies that malfunctioned in some way or another -- usually improper
shutter cycling or not firing at all). Of course there are others on this
forum who will disagree with my claim... but I am stating my view based on
my personal experience. Anyone can and should be their own judge.


5. Naumenko's operation appears to be cash strapped and he cannot survive by
dealing with KievCamera alone. Despite his unfriendly separation from the
Pissarenkos, he has apparently re-started supplying cameras and other items
to them... so the items coming from Hartblei.com may indeed be "real"
Hartblei products again.

--
Stacey


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 
From: "CyberDan" [email protected]
Subject: Re: kiev 60 user

Not an expert in the field, however did some research on the KIEV 60
when i bought mine (still awaiting delivery) - these big cameras tend to have
a lot of vibration due to the large mirror 'flip-flop' when taking a photo. Hence the
improvement in the later models with the MLU. Also heard some disturbing news from Kiev owners around the world that the later model K60's (from 1990
onwards, I believe) there was little or no quality control on the assembly lines and that these later model cameras tend to be very problematic (spacing between frames, mechanism sticking etc etc). rest assured the K60 community
hold their faith on the pre 1990 models which are considered quite reliable.

Be worth checking out a few K60 forums to get several opinions before you purchase. this one is quite good;

http://www.fotoralf.de/k60.htm

best of luck

Cheers, daniel


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 
From: Gene Poon [email protected]
Subject: Re: kiev 60 user

peterinbrussels wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> This isn't, strictly speaking, a fix question but a user question.
> I've got the chance to buy a Kiev 60 without mirror lock-up. Any
> opinions? Good enough or should I wait for an MLU model? Relative
> merits of MLU in 35mm and larger formats?

==================================

It might get to be a fix question, since it concerns a Kiev! But
seriously, the Kiev 60 doesn't deserve that reputation. But read on,
about MLU, first:

Probably a Kiev 60 without MLU is good enough most of the time. It all
depends on how you will be using the camera. MLU has not proven to be
as useful or helpful in the Kiev 60 as I thought it would be. Handheld,
of course, one would never use it. When the camera is being used on a
tripod on a static subject, I use it because there is no way that a
non-MLU exposure will have MORE shake. However, the shutter mechanism
on Kiev 60 cameras creates a lot more vibration than does the mirror;
that and other factors may be swamping the effects of the mirror slap,
so results have not convinced me about it.

MLU was a discussion topic on one of the Russian camera discussion
groups about two weeks ago. Various members found its benefits varied
widely according to the type of tripod being used, shutter speeds, etc.
Most agreed that it was something that tended to be agonized over when
careful attention to other factors was more important. As to MLU in
other medium format cameras, it was generally agreed that in most, it
had a small effect; the major exception being the Pentax 67 which
definitely benefits from MLU, much more so than the Kiev 60; while one
member pointed to an objective test that shows MLU benefitting the
Pentax 645 not at all, bearing out its manufacturer's claims that its
mirror drive system is effectively and gently braked before the mirror
reaches its limit of travel.

If you are buying new, there is a big advantage to MLU. Since the
Arsenal factory in Kiev, Ukraine does not build MLU cameras at all, any
camera with this feature has been opened up and partly disassembled to
install it. Given the lack of quality control in the factory, this
means that an MLU camera at least has the possibility of having any
factory "bugs" corrected.

What bugs? The most annoying one is in Kiev 60's film advance measuring
system; unlike other medium format cameras which measure frame length by
a "feeler" wheel that rolls on the film as it advances, the Kiev 60
measures it by angular rotation of the takeup spool. Kiev 60 from the
factory are adjusted for use with Eastern bloc film, which is thicker
than are most Western film; so that a box-stock Kiev 60 from the factory
often has frame spacing that is closer than is desirable; you might get
13 frames on a roll of 120 film, but sometimes the frames will be
overlapping. The factory is also sloppy on such things as focus screen
calibration vs. the film plane, and exposure meter linearity/accuracy.
The interior of the mirror box seems to suggest that the Ukrainians know
nothing about flat black paint; it is finished in what is more
accurately described as satin black, and repainting it with true flat
paint, or installing a kit of self-adhesive flocking paper from
Baierfoto will improve flare performance. Fortunately all this work is
easily done, within the capabilities of anyone who frequents this Group;
instructions are found on the Web at:

http://www.kievaholic.com/kiev60kalibration.html

I have my doubts about the shutter speed adjustment procedure at this
site, though; it is actually a shutter curtain run speed adjustment.
The high speed slit width adjustment on the Kiev 60 is a lot trickier
and if you go too far, you may have to disassemble the shutter control
section of the camera to back it off.

There are suppliers who sell upgraded Kiev 60 MLU cameras, and who can
also take an old Kiev 60, do the necessary adjustments and repairs, and
install MLU.

The best of them seems to be Arax in Kiev, owned by Gevorg Vartanyan.
All Kiev cameras he sells, other than the as-is bodies sold on eBay, are
individually adjusted and upgraded, with MLU installed on all Kiev 60.
Shipping cost of a Kiev 60 kit, which includes lens, metering prism,
waist level finder, lens hood and two filters, is about $40 to the USA.
Arax also repairs Kiev cameras. Repair and upgrade costs are
reasonable but for a USA owner, the cost of shipping a Kiev body for
repair or upgrade is about $25 each way.

Arax also can supply parts that are used in current production at the
Arsenal factory; it's best to combine parts orders with an order for
other items, due to shipping costs.

www.araxfoto.com

If this sounds like an advertisement for Arax, it isn't; I have simply
been very impressed by the courteous and considerate treatment I have
received in dealing with Gevorg; and I haven't even bought any of his
camera bodies; only some lenses, accessories and repair parts. A finer
buying experience, I have never had.



Kiev USA is another source of new Kiev cameras that have been opened up
and adjusted to eliminate factory sloppiness; and also for repairs;
their prices are higher than Arax, even considering shipping from Arax
to the USA; and I found them uncooperative when I needed to get parts to
repair a Kiev. I had hoped they had a factory parts source, since they
claim to be "the sole factory-authorized distributor in the USA for
sales and service of Kiev medium format cameras, lenses, and
accessories." Yet they quite curtly told me they have to salvage parts
off dead cameras to do repairs, and thus can't spare any for individual
sale.

www.kievusa.com



Kiev Camera in Atlanta is another dealer in the USA, and their prices
are lower than what an Arax camera will cost, due to shipping costs; but
their Kiev cameras are stock ones, without any adjustments being done
after the camera leaves the factory. Despite the claims by Kiev USA, it
actually seems that Kiev Camera has the most direct contact with the
Arsenal factory which builds these cameras.

www.kievcamera.com



Hope nobody minds my running-on about the Kiev 60. Kiev may have a
reputation for being unreliable but this is largely due to the much more
complex Kiev 88, the one which looks like a Hasselblad; its removable
backs and a shutter mechanism that breaks if you operate it incorrectly
(NEVER change shutter speeds with shutter uncocked) account for the
majority of its problems. The Kiev 60 has neither of these subjects,
and is reliable once a new camera is properly set up and adjusted, or
repaired properly. I enjoy mine thoroughly.

-Gene Poon



From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 
From: Gene Poon [email protected]
Subject: Re: kiev 60 user

Jim Brokaw wrote:

> Gene, thanks for the whole article on the Kiev 60, you've got me thinking I
> might want one...


Once they are working (and they can be a tinkerer's project to get that way),
the Kiev 60 are a cheap way to get into Medium Format on the amateur-usage
level, especially if one feels qualified to do the adjustments and tweaks. Mine
are a 1995-built one, which needed frame spacing adjustment; and a 1985-built
one, sold to me as a parts camera because the double exposure prevention wasn't
working (it needed an easy adjustment). I don't think they'd hold up well to
heavy pro use, although two bodies would cost less than one of anything else. 

To determine the age of an older Kiev 60, or most cameras from Kiev, look at the
serial number. The first two digits are were the year of manufacture, until
1999 or so.

The Arsenal factory that builds the Kievs also builds lenses, with some of their
lenses irregular in quality and others reliably good. The normal 80mm is well
regarded, and the real gem, if one likes fisheyes, is the 30mm. The 150mm
telephoto is good but doesn't focus close enough for portraiture; while the 45mm
wide angle is the most variable. The Kiev 60 can also accept lenses made for
the Pentacon 6, though there are some glitches in fitting some of them (for the
most common problem and a 10-minute fix, see:

http://www.geocities.com/kievgurl/fit.html

The ability to use Pentacon 6 lenses means you can use the very highly regarded
Zeiss Jena 180mm Sonnar, and the excellent Schneider lenses made for the Exakta
66, though those will cost lots more, negating some of the "fun" aspect of a
cheap MF system. The Kiev and CZJ MF lenses are also faster, most being f/2.8
and f/3.5. Some of the Zeiss Jena lenses use formulas that are identical to
lenses from West German Carl Zeiss; the Biometar is a Planar, for example; while
some are regarded as superior, most specifically the 50mm Flektagon which is
regarded as a better optical design than the Zeiss Oberkochen Distagon.

-GP


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 
From: "Franz S. Borgerding" [email protected]
Subject: Re: kiev 60 user

you wrote:
>Jim Brokaw wrote:
> > Gene, thanks for the whole article on the Kiev 60, you've got me thinking I
> > might want one...

Hi Jim,

I own one without MLU and am quite satisfied with it. The only disadvan-
tage ist, that shutter times between 1/30 an 1/4 should be avoided. The
mirror slams quite heavy and even my very rugged Schiansky tripod can't
hold these vibrations.

Adjustment of film transport is quite simple and well documented. Show
me another affordable MF camera with opportunity to get 13 frames per
roll!

Another thing is the use of Carl Zeiss Jena Lenses: Both Sonnar-180 and
Flektogon-50 are a must-have:-)
My Volna-80 is a good performer, but I had some bad luck with my first
Mir-65. Quality control is written in very tiny letters at Arsenal. The
second one performs good.
Unfortunately the lens shade for the Flektogon costs as much as the
lens itself and Filters for Sonnar/Flektogon get very expensive (95mm
diameter).
The Jupiter-250 is of good lens design, it's a tele-Tessar. It does
not have a tripod clamp and is heavy (!).

Maybe you want to have a look at Kiev report on delphiforums. But take
your time to read...

Beste regards,
Franz
--
Franz S. Borgerding 


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 
From: Gene Poon [email protected]
Subject: Re: kiev 60 user

Regarding Kiev 60 MLU: there are two types. IMHO, one is desirable, and I'd
sooner have no MLU at all than the other type.

In one, there is an external button which fires the mirror without releasing the
shutter. Once the mirror is up, which obviously can happen accidentally if you
push the button, the only way to lower it is to release the shutter, so if you
must re-aim, you lose the frame (or you can use the sportsfinder in the
waist-level finder).

The other version, obviously less desirable, is actually a mirror pre-release.
When you push the shutter release halfway, the mirror flips up. Push it the
rest of the way and the shutter releases. If you don't want the separate
mirror/shutter actions, the only bypass...and it's not really that at all...is
to rapidly push the shutter button all the way down. To me, this is the
undesirable type because it precludes a gentle stroke on the release button in
handheld use.

-GP


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 
From: Gene Poon [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev-60 Film Advance 
spounderuk wrote: 
> 
> Hi Franz, 
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply. My Kiev has been giving me 14 shots per 
> roll on Provia! Unfortunately there was some serious frame 
> overlapping ;o(. 
> 
> I was interested in your comment about the thickness of film. I have 
> often wondered if the thickness of Russian-made film was different 
> enough to cause problems when using ex-USSR cameras with 'western' 
> films. I had assumed that the thickness of most'western' films (with 
> the exception of Kodak HIE) was more or less the same. 
=========================== 
That is the crux of the problem. Most FSU film has been thicker than Western, 
thus the overlapping frames when thinner film is used. The Kiev 60 doesn't 
measure length of each frame directly as a Rolleiflex TLR does, using a "feeler 
wheel" that rotates as the film passes under it; but instead measures angular 
travel of the takeup spool...which of course will vary for each frame as film 
builds up on the spool. It also will vary with the diameter of the takeup 
spool, which is why some say to build up the core of the spool with some tape 
before loading. 
-GP 


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003  
From: "[email protected]" [email protected] 
Subject: Trapped "T"'s and film sharpness was Re: Kiev-60 Film Advance 
This is one issue that was indirectly addressed and for many Ukranian 120 
cameras fixed by an innovation of a Western film manufacturer that has gone 
largely unnoticed. 
About 4 years ago Fuji Film introduced plastic 120 spools with a trapped 
"T"-shaped plastic extension inside the film take-up slot. This was mated 
with a hole punched in Fuji Film's paper leader. 
What this "T" does is hold the film flatter in the film gate resulting in 
sharper photos. The side benefit to Kiev/Kneb users is that with flatter 
film tensioning, less film is "exposed" in the film gate. Resulting in the 
elimination of frames that "kiss" in cameras where overlap is minor...it 
sure fixed my "60". 

Surprise. It even works with Kodak and other films with or without an 
accessory hole punch for the leader (I still punch mine). Fuji offered this 
"technology for free to Kodak who refused and the marketers at Fuji failed 
to sing it's praises. 

So I am one of the few pwople who dumpster-dive at the local lab in order 
to get spools to sharpen up those Kodak moments. 

Wayne 


Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 
From: "M.C. Steele" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Kiev 60 / Mirror question
To: [email protected]

Rob,
There is a way to make the Kiev 60 mirror lockable....I have seen it described elsewhere.....a "home modification". 
I think if you go to the "Kievaholics " site and check around or ask, some one can direct you to the Kiev 60 who 
managed to do this and document the modification required.

Best Regards,

Mike Steele


"Rob K." [email protected] wrote:
Hi all,

Is there a way to make the Kiev 60 mirror lockable ?
Do their exist kits to do so ??


Regards Rob K.








Broken Links:
http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/kiev-60_manual.htm was Kiev 60 Manual online at Kalimex)

http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/ttl-60_manual.htm was Kiev 60 TTL Prism Finder Manual online at Kalimex)

http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/kiev-88_manual.htm was Kiev 88 Manual Online at Kalimex)

http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/ttl-88_manual.htm was Kiev 88 TTL Prism Finder Manual Online at Kalimex)

http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/filmback-standard_manual.htm was Kiev 88/688 Filmback Manual Online at Kalimex)

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