Avoiding Scams

Related Links:
Where to Buy a Camera by Philip Greenspun
A Primer on Buying Equipment by Danny Gonzalez

  • Avoiding Mailorder Problems and Scams


    Scam and Ripoff Related Postings:

    From: Josh Lieber [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Nikon Gear scam
    Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998

    Hi there,

    I posted a lot of gear earlier today under the name Josh Lieber. So far I have received well over 30 emails, most of them offering to zip off money orders.

    THIS IS A SCAM!!

    I did thid to hopefully wake some people up an help them avoid what recently happened to me.

    I answered an ad for an EOS-1N. The guy seemed legit, I even spoke with him on the phone. Then I sent him a money order. Needless to say, I never saw the camera. The email address was a web TV address, and it too disappeared. I even found out that the address i had shipped to was a Mail Boxes Etc, and the the phone was a cellular.

    None of this will help me get my money back, no one really cares if you have been scammed out of $1000. But here is the point:

    I set up the email account at Yahoo without needing to provide any info as to who I really am, where I live, or how to track me down. It is untraceable.

    I could easily pay cash in advance for a mail box at Mail Boxes Etc, they also do not require any ID.

    An excellent false ID in any name I choose, such as Josh Lieber, can be mine for $45 through the internet. this would allow me to cash the money orders at any one of many check cashing places here in NYC.

    As of last count, If I went through with this scam, and if everyone who said that they wanted gear came through, I would have made $23,000 + today alone!!!

    Do not get scammed!!!! Do not buy from people who have hotmail, yahoo, webtv or other email addresses that can't be traced and require no ID to activate. Try and contact the person ahead of time at home and at work, though this is still no guarantee,

    Finally, COD and any one of the several companies that will handle transactions for you may be a good investment.

    I have made dozens of deals over the net, and have never used iEscrow or anything like it, but I am sure that it would have cost me less than the $1000 that I lost.

    I am sorry if people are pissed and angry at what I have done, but I was trying to make a point and hopefully help people from getting scammed. I saved long and hard for that camera body, and now I have to start from scratch.

    Thanks,

    Sam aka Josh Lieber


    Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998
    From: Bob Shell [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] Re: IMPORTANT: Scam warning

    Hi everyone,

    I wanted to alert all of you to a scam which has seriously hurt a number of people in the photo industry. Please share this information with other individuals and lists who could be in danger.

    There is a ring of crooks operating in New York state. They are buying high-end photo equipment and paying for it with bogus cashiers checks.

    Here is how the scam works. One of these people calls a seller and expresses an interest in specific high-end photo gear which that seller has advertised. He will request overnight shipping by a courier service, COD. He wants you to call him when you have shipped and give him the airbill number of the shipment. The phone number he gives you to call for this is a pager or message service, not a home telephone number. He knows little or nothing about photo equipment if asked questions.

    When the shipments arrive he or an accomplice is waiting in the lobby, or flags down the driver on the street and claims the shipment and passes the bogus cashiers check to the driver. The actual people at the shipping address are not involved, and have been cleared by the police. He never uses the same address twice.

    Several Shutterbug advertisers have been hit by this ring, who at present have managed to steal around $ 100,000 worth of merchandise. The cashiers checks being used appear to be drawn on Chase Manhattan or Fleet Bank, but are completely fake.

    If you are approached by someone who fits the above profile trying to buy high-end equipment, please contact me by private e-mail and I will put you in touch with the appropriate Secret Service and/or FBI agent.

    I hope none of you get caught by this theft ring.

    Bob Shell


    Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999
    From: Bob Shell [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] Off Topic -- Scam Warning

    I've just gotten off the phone with the detective in our local police department who was investigating something for me, and thought I should pass along this scam warning in case these people are targeting photographers.

    Several weeks ago when I was out of town someone called my office and left a message on my answering machine. They identified themselves as Coast To Coast Couriers and left a toll free number and an airbill number. They said they had a package for me and needed delivery information. My wife checked the machine and phoned them, and got a recording, so she left delivery instructions (my photo lab takes deliveries for me when I am away).

    When I got back I checked with the lab and nothing had been delivered. So I called the toll free number. I was immediately suspicious because their recording says all their agents are busy and asks you to leave your phone number and the airbill number but does not identify the company by name. After leaving callbacks a bunch of times and getting no calls, I decided to try and pursue this further. I called the telephone company to see if they could find another number for Coast To Coast Couriers. Sure enough, they found them in Dayton, Ohio, and gave me the number. I called and talked to them. The toll free number I had was not theirs and the air bill number was not theirs either.

    Next I asked the phone company to trace the toll free number so I could find out who really had called. No luck, it was provided by a private carrier.

    That's when I turned the whole thing over to the police. It was obviously a scam of some sort, but I couldn't figure out what.

    Well, it turns out that these folks are well known to police around the country, but this was the first report in my area. The scam is this, if they reach you on their first tries, they tell you they have a package but you must pay shipping since the shipper did not. The shipper is some company you never heard of. If you fall for it, you are asked to mail them a check for the shipping costs and they will then arrange for delivery of the package.

    That's the last you hear of them or your money.

    Boy, some people sure have a lot of time to think up scams as complicated as this!!!!!!

    Bob Shell


    Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Off Topic -- Scam Warning

    [email protected] (Bob Shell) writes:

    >  Next I asked the phone company to trace the toll free number so I could
    >  find out who really had called.  No luck, it was provided by a private
    >  carrier.
    

    ================================================
    Did their toll free number show up on caller ID? Try running their phone number through reverse look up on Infospace:

    http://pic2.infospace.com/info/reverse.htm

    If you come up with a name and address, Infospace will even provide you with a map to their location! Not only is that cool, it's free, too!

    R. J. Bender ( A Nikon, Mamiya and Rollei user. )
    mailto:[email protected] or
    mailto:[email protected]
    http://homepages.infoseek.com/~rbender/RS.htm


    From: [email protected] (NMcgroarty)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Fraud Warning for Camera Sellers
    Date: 30 Dec 1998

    Beware of counterfit Certified Bank checks. I recently "sold" a Pentax 645 camera to an individual from New York City who paid me with a certified check. This check turned out to be fraudulent. There are people out there using these fraudulent bank checks to buy photo equipment. This check was drawn on Midland Marine Bank in NY. Anyone who sees a Pentax 645, body s/n 1014603, lens s/n 4123458, please contact me. Thanks, and be careful!!


    [Ed. note: I am including this posting to show that even stores that have a bad reputation on the Internet and negative BBB rating (as I write this) can change, and stores can't last long if they upset a large fraction of their customers. Still, your chances of a good experience improve a lot if you are a saavy buyer, know exactly what you want, and insist on getting it without substitutions, use a credit card, and otherwise use the tips and pointers herein and elsewhere on the WWW and Internet...]

    From: [email protected] (F19841975)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Cambridge Camera - IMHO, not as bad as many think
    Date: 16 Dec 1998

    I needed to order a new flash (540 EZ) for my Canon camera. I checked several "reputable" dealers with whom I've done business over the years: Adorama, Calumet, Freestyle, as well as several local stores in Rhode Island. None of them had the unit in stock.

    I called several dealers in New York and was treated very rudely. It was with trepidation that I called Cambridge Camera, an outfit which has a "bad" reputation. I dialed the 212 number (675-8600), which was answered on the third ring. "Thank you for calling Cambridge Camera, this is Rhavi, may I please be of assistance?" Rhavi had a noticeable South Asian accent (Indian, Pakistani, or Sri Lankan), but was easy to understand. I asked him if he had the Canon 540 EZ speedlite with US Warranty in stock. "Please hold, my kind sir, I will be happy to check." I was on hold for about 30 seconds when I heard "I apologize for the delay, sir. We do have the Canon 540 EZ with US Warranty in Stock. That will cost $309.95 please, sir. Would you be interested in ordering?" I double-checked with Ravi to make sure the flash had a US Warranty. "Oh, yes, my sir. This flash has a one-year warranty by Canon USA. If anything unfortunate happens within a year of purchase, please return it to Canon in Jamesburg, New Jersey for complimentary repair."

    I told Rhavi I'd be interested in ordering. "Would you like to order anything else today, sir?" I told him no, but thank you, the flash would be it. He asked me for my name, address, telephone number, and credit card details. He asked me how I'd like to have it shipped. I told him "the least expensive way possible." Ravi said the shipping cost, by UPS Ground, is $7.50. The order total was $317.45, "no tax for you sir, since you live outside of New York." Ravi then asked me what my favorite type of film was. I told him Fuji Sensia 100, but at that point also told him to make sure not to add any film to my order (I still have a bunch of Sensia sitting in my freezer). "Oh, no sir, I am just curious. I like to know what types of film people use." I thanked him for the order, "oh no, thank you, sir. Thank you for calling Cambridge Camera." Thank you, bye. "Goodbye, and happy holidays, sir."

    I got the package two days after ordering. The 540 EZ flash was brand new, in a sealed box. Also enclosed were two rolls of Sensia II 100, 135-36, with a 5-2000 expiration date. I checked the receipt, which showed the flash for $309.95, shipping for $7.50, and, in handwriting, "Please accept these two Sensia films with my compliments. Thank you for shopping with Cambridge Camera. Your friend, Rhavi." I couldn't have been happier with the purchase, but the proverbial icing on the cake was when I got a voice mail message a couple of days later. A transcription follows:

    "Hello, Mr. O'Connell, this is Ashok from the Customer Service department at Cambridge Camera in New York. I thank you for ordering your Canon 540 EZ flash through us and trust that you have received it satisfactorily." [note, I signed for the UPS package, so they knew I received it] "I hope you enjoy your new Speedlite, and hope that you please consider us for future orders. Please call me at 800-221-2253 if you have any questions or comments. I wish you a happy holiday and peaceful and prosperous new year. Thanks again for your business, Mr. O'Connell. Goodbye."

    I would like to stress that I have NO connection whatsoever with Cambridge Camera, other than as a very satisfied customer. I'll admit to being a little leery when placing my order with Rhavi, but I could not be happier. I have no hesitation whatsoever with doing future business with what I consider a first class firm. I'll be traveling to New York next month and look forward to dropping in to their store and checking out their inventory.

    Michael O'Connell,
    Rhode Island (USA)

    [Ed. note: see update and "seconds thoughts" posting below...]


    [Ed. note: Too good to be true? A Rebuttal..]

    Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999
    From: steve zwicky [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: cambridge story

    Just a quick rebuttal to the heartwarming story about someone named 'Rhavi' at Cambridge. I called today and asked for him. The person on the phone said 'Who? Robby?' a couple of times, then said to wait a minute. After a few minutes, a similar person (with a somewhat yiddish accent) returned to the line. I asked his name, and he countered by asking who I wanted. I said 'Rhavi' and he said he was Rhavi. He then gave me the standard pushy and brusque sales experience I have always gotten when attempting to buy from them. Once again, I told them thanks, but no thanks and called B&H. The moral: if it's on the web, it must be true (or not).

    Steve Zwicky


    Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999
    From: steve zwicky [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: cambridge story

    Hey Bob,

    I have so far tried four times to take the leap of faith and buy something from Cambridge. Each time, I ended up hanging up after some blatent high pressure tactic or general rudeness (for instance, I called their 1-800 number (listed as 'for orders only') with the intention of ordering. I asked if they could tell me if an item were in stock. The answer was no. I was supposed to call the toll number for that information! A few days later, I called the toll number very near their closing time, to check stock and place the order. I was told that they didn't have time.

    Here is the humorous twist: after I hung up, my old refrigerator finally failed. By saving me from myself, Cambridge kept my bank account healthy enough to buy the 'fridge.

    Cheers,

    Steve Zwicky


    Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999
    From: Michael O'Connell [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Second thoughts about Cambridge Camera

    Although I am not a Bronica user (I own several Canon SLR cameras, FD and EF mount, plus a Canon Sure Shot), I found this web site by searching for "Rhavi" and "Cambridge Camera." Thank you for posting my comments about Cambridge Camera, written last December (1998).

    I went down to New York City on Tuesday, 6th September (the day after Labor Day) and, while I was there, decided to check out Cambridge Camera for myself. They are at the old B&H location on 17th Street, east of 7th Avenue. I went in there and the first person I encountered asked me, brusquely, "yes, what do you want?!" I asked if I could see Rhavi (the very pleasant salesman with whom I did business last year). "Rhavi no longer works here," he snapped. I asked for Ashok (the customer service manager who left me a voice mail after I placed and received my order). Without saying a word, he stormed away. I thought he was going to ignore me, so I started to walk toward the door. Just before I left the store, I heard a gentleman yell "sir, may I help you?" I walked back and asked him if he was Ashok. He said yes and asked if he could help me. I told him I would like to buy a couple of filters and some film. I wanted to buy two B&W filters (58mm size), a Circular Polarizer and an 80A/Tungsten for Daylight film, 10 rolls of Fujichrome Sensia II 100, and 5 rolls of Fujicolor Superia 400. He checked the inventory and apologetically told me that he didn't have the B&W 80A filter in stock but he did have the equivalent by Hoya and Tiffen. I told him no thanks, I'd like the B&W and I'd check for that elsewhere. He did have the Circular Polarizer and the Fuji films I requested and asked me if I'd like to buy them. There was NO pressure to buy the Hoya or Tiffen filters; he said "I understand" after I told him I was adamant about getting the B&W brand.

    I told him I was surprised by the way the first guy treated me when I walked in, since I got such excellent service over the phone. He apologized and told me he'd "have a word with him." I then asked Ashok about Rhavi. "Oh, he took a job with another camera store." I said that was too bad, since he was an excellent salesman.

    "I miss him too, he was one of our best salesman. A lot of people still ask for him."

    After he rang up and packed my order, I thanked him for his time. He stretched out his arm to shake my hand and again apologized for the behavior of the (first) person.

    The moral of the story is, there ARE good people even in "bad" camera stores. I can't blame Rhavi for transferring to what I hope is a happier and friendlier environment. I hope Ashok is able to "lay down the law" and stop such rude behavior by some Cambridge employees, both over the phone and in person. I should have suggested (to him) that he read some of the internet newsgroups.

    BTW, I walked two blocks down to Adorama (on 18th Street, east of Ave. of the Americas, or 6th Avenue) and got my B&W 80A filter with no problems. Adorama's staff weren't overly solicitous, but they were polite and professional. I've used Adorama for mail order several times over the years and will probably visit them first the next time I travel to New York.

    Again, I have no experience with Bronica equipment, and I apologize if this posting is out of bounds of newsgroup regulations, but, since my name and message was posted here, I felt as if I had to respond. Thank you.

    Michael O'Connell
    Providence, Rhode Island, USA


    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999
    From: "Ben R. McRee" [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] Re: OT: Shipping--USPS/UPS/FedEx

    Sometime within the past year Consumer Reports (much maligned recently on this list) ran extensive real-world tests on the three major U.S. shippers. They shipped hundreds of packages from various points around the country and tabulated how many arrived on time, how many were lost, and, most pertinent to recent discussion here, how many were subjected to extreme shocks along the way (using the sort of acceleration detectors that Richard Knoppow described).

    What did they discover? Although no shipper was perfect (as seems also to have been the RUGs experience), the boxes that were least often abused were those shipped parcel post--U.S. Mail ground service in other words. The worst for shock was one of the second tier FedEx services--2nd day air or Economy, I don't recall which. If I remember rightly FedEx did, however, have the best on-time delivery record.

    Cheers,

    Ben


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999
    From: Bob Shell [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Camera Stores

    > I use those two as well.  One thing I cannot for the life of me figure
    > out is how the rip off stores manage to stay in business with their
    > practices.  One need only to read the store review web site to hear tale
    > after sorry tale of plain-ass fraud.  If they were in my state the AGs
    > office would shut them down in about two minutes.  And probably send the
    > principals to jail too.
    

    That's what's so frustrating to those of us who would like to clean up the industry. Most of the people who order from these guys are good, honest Americans who have never had to deal with slick operators and are totally unprepared for the experience. These people are not on the sinternet. I think internet numbers are grossly exaggerated. I talk to a lot of Shutterbug readers and the majority are not on the net. The NY State Attorney General's office has made it very clear to us that they just are not interested in this issue. Officials in NYC have told us the same. When the people charged with enforcing the laws refuse to act it is just about impossible to do anything to clean things up. Believe me, all of us in the photo magazine business consider this an important issue, but we need help to get rid of the slick, devious and fraudulent dealers.

    Bob


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999
    From: jchow [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Off Topic--Method of Payment from Japan

    > >  I have a gentleman from Japan that wants to purchase a small item (Rollei)
    > >  from me ( I live in the U.S.)    What is the best method to ship it to him
    > >  ( weight less than  1/2 pound)  /    what is easiest /best way for him to pay
    > >  me ( is there a International Money Order or the like ? ) ?
    

    As I live in Japan, when I have to send small sums of money to the US, I send international postal money orders in USD. It costs the sender 1000 yen for the fee. The other possibility is just to send travellers checks in USD, but it's more inconvenient to get traveller's checks...takes my bank about 45 min to issue travellers checks while it's more like 5-10 min for the post office to issue money orders. I have sent these before and they've been cashed with no problem (takes a little longer to clear than an in-state personal check but less than an out-of-state personal check). For larger sums (over $5000 USD), I wire the money direct, as the loss in commission from the money order/travellers checks is greater than the loss of commission from sending the money directly (a better exchange rate) plus the 3500 yen wiring charge. Don't forget that there's a receiving charge on the other end, usually about $10.

    For shipping from the US to Japan, FedEx sucks. Period. They zap the receiver for an extra 500 yen fee, even after all the shipping has supposedly been paid for. FedEx also barely has a presence in Japan; there isn't even one nearby in my city, and I live in the second largest city in Japan! Ditto with DHL. Here, Takyubin rules. The have an alliance w/ UPS. If I'm sending something overseas, the easiest method is express mail (cheaper/faster than 1st class). The drawback is that if you have to send, say, a Rollei part to Germany for repair, it queues up in German customs for 4-5 weeks (we've been through this discussion before).

    --Jim


    Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999
    From: [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.misc
    Subject: Re: What does camera KIT imply?

    Kenny G [email protected] wrote:

    > When buying a KIT does it mean than the KIT costs LESS than the sum
    > price of its components????
    > Almost every camera kit is being sold with a 28-80 lens.. but I would
    > like to take a 24-85 or a 28-105 instead... so i'm wondering if it
    would
    > cost me something extra...
    >
    > Some other questions:
    > 1. What does it mean that a lens diafragm can go up to a value to one
    > end and up to another value at the other end??? Shouldn't it use the
    > whole aperture range for any given focal length?? If not, is there any
    > lens that does this? Are there any advantages/drawbacks of having this
    > feature?
    >
    > 2. Is the number of diafragm blades an important feature of a lens?
    >
    > 3. About eye-controled-focus: They say  you have to look at a focus
    > point in order to focus in that direction... Would this mean than the
    > focus is limited only to that small focus points?? What if I want to
    > look at any point in the image? would it still focus on that point??? or
    > do i have to make other adjustments? (how? is there a dial for that? I
    > cannot manually affect the focus if the camera is not in manual mode...
    > right?)
    > Thakx for any feedback,
    > Marius
    

    When buying a kit -- be on your guard. This is the way some dealers pull fast ones on the customer. Know what you are getting, by brand by model and by importer. I would stick with US equipment only until you have more experience in buying camera equipment. If they don't say in the ad that the lens is by the same company as the camera - it isn't! Some kits contain such valuable accessories as lens tissue, and a blower brush. Make sure you KNOW what you are getting. Pay a few dollars more and get your camera (kit or a la carte) from a reliable dealer (Adorama, B&H, Cameraworld - in alphabetical order), but even with them be sure you know what you have ordered. Just on GP I would go for the 28-105 anyway. In fact I did when I bought my Elan.

    The difference in apature is standard in modern zooms. It is one of the reasons we can afford them. It simply means that the largest apature remains the same size as the zoom goes through it's range. The same size but a changing ratio. Apature is a ratio. An f1.0 lens has the same size opening as it's focal length. F2 is one half the focal length etc. The drawbacks are dealt with by the light meter in the camera, the advantage is price.

    Number of blades is important. The more blades the closer the apature is to a circle, which would take an infinite number of blades. I don't think you will find too many lenses with too few blades however.

    -- With any auto focus camera you must put the object you want to focus on in a focus spot (the center on most cameras), depress the shutter slightly, locking focus, and compose your shot. Cameras with more than one spot allow you to do the same thing at several places on the screen, but you still must lock and compose, if you want to change framing, you just don't have to do as much. Eye control allows you to do this with your eye, instead of a control that you must use with your hand. Once you have your focus point you still must lock before moving your eye. It takes very little time to get used to this, but there may be other factors too. When I tried eye control several years ago it worked very poorly if I wore my glasses, but pretty good without. I haven't tried it since.

    The camera can be in auto exposure mode but manual focus mode, and vice-versa.


    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
    From: Marc James Small [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei off topic- Method of payment from Japan

    [email protected] wrote:

    > I have a gentleman from Japan that wants to purchase a small item (Rollei)
    > from me ( I live in the U.S.)    What is the best method to ship it to him
    > ( weight less than  1/2 pound)  /    what is easiest /best way for him to pay
    > me ( is there a International Money Order or the like ? ) ?
    

    From Japan, Postal Money Orders seem the way to go for small exchanges, and wiring of funds for larger. I, too, have had the problem with the high cost of collecting on overseas checks drawn in foreign currency, and my experiences vary dramatically from Bob Shell's -- and I, too, have a commercial account. And I have had problems with several different banks, as well.

    Hence, I just insist on payment in US funds. Works for me!

    As for shipping, Bob Shell recommended FedEx. BEWARE! Watch out for the "unique item" rule. FedEx, UPS, &c, regard any item which bears a serial number and which is no longer in production as a "unique item" and they will NOT insure this. Oh, they will take your money but, if the item is lost or damaged, they will regretfully decline to pay, tell you they should not have allowed you to insure it, and refund your insurance premium. (Thank heavens for my FedEx delivery guy, who warned me of this when I was preparing an $8,000 lens for shipment to Japan a few years back!)

    ALWAYS ship by government mail. The insurance requirements can be funky but, by heavens, they do pay!

    Marc
    [email protected]


    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
    From: Bill Grimwood [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei off topic- Method of payment from Japan

    I have had several experiences with people in Japan buying from me. The safest way to do it is to insist that they send a check in US dollars on a US bank. There are many banks in Japan that cooperate with US banks and the bank can arrange payment in this way. When it is done like this there is no $20.00 fee for cashing the check.

    Bill Grimwood


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
    From: Marc James Small [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei off topic- Method of payment from Japan

    Bob Shell wrote:

    >Maybe you just have to owe the bank a lot of money!!!  My account is with
    >First Union and was with Dominion before they were swallowed.  My house and
    >business loans are there, too, and I get many bank fees deferred for this
    >reason.  No one ever mention a fee for deposit of a foreign check, but
    >maybe that also comes with the territory.
    

    ...

    Bob A LOT depends on how the check is drafted. If it is drawn on an American bank doing business in, say, Japan -- such as BoA or the like -- then, no, there are no charges, other than currency-conversion charges. But IF the arrangement is for a "corresponding" bank to do the dirty work -- that is, the check is made through a local bank which has a deal with an American bank to honour their checks -- then there normally is a rather hefty fee. (I just got burned on such a deal with a most esteemed and elderly Canadian professional photographer of international reputation -- both of us should have known better, but we got burned, for the all of it! I bore the loss.)

    Western Virginia Fiscal History Experts, Only, Take Note: Dominion Bank, NA, had a foreign-exchange section located about three blocks from me. No hu-hu. I could get anything done there. After the Short Guy got through gutting the bank, the foreign-exchange section went away. Then they were merged with First Union (known in the trade as the "FU" bank for obvious reasons), and I went away, as well. I have a couple of accounts with BoA and, now that they're in town, may go there for my main commercial account.

    As to shipping, the "unique item" rule ONLY applies to items no longer in production. Leica II camera bodies. Contarex and Kilfitt lenses. It doesn't apply to stuff still being made.

    Marc

    [email protected]


    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
    From: Richard Lahrson [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei off topic- Method of payment from Japan

    Marc James Small wrote:

    > Bob
    > A LOT depends on how the check is drafted.  If it is drawn on an American
    > bank doing business in, say, Japan -- such as BoA or the like -- then, no,
    > there are no charges, other than currency-conversion charges.  But IF the
    > arrangement is for a "corresponding" bank to do the dirty work -- that is,
    > the check is made through a local bank which has a deal with an American
    > bank to honour their checks -- then there normally is a rather hefty  fee.
    

    Hi Bob and Marc and Everyone!

    That's it, the third party bank. So, best to check! But I still think the International money order is best, though, as I explained, my one experience was having the mail botch it; but the Postal service made good on it.

    Since we're telling stories, I sold an item and waited more than reasonably for the M. O. in the mail. I e-mailed the buyer and he explained the letter was returned to him; my address was BEYOND legible on the envelop and the contents with the M. O. were also crushed and torn. But the US Post Office came through without charge for a SECOND Postal Money Order.

    More stories! I sold a Minox Enlarger and packed it carfully. The buyer received it in fine order, but told me that the Post Office fully distroyed the box. Moral: pack carefully.

    Cheers,

    Rich Lahrson


    [Ed. note: pack inside zip lock bags with silica gel to ship???]
    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999
    From: Bob Shell [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei off topic- Method of payment from Japan

    I recently sold some Kilfit lenses to a fellow in Portugal. I boxed very carefully and shipped via air parcel post insured. The lenses were perfect when shipped, glass clear and unmarred. He contacted me when he got them several weeks later to complain that they were full of fungus! Somehow between here and there the box got VERY wet and sat around somewhere in a hot place and you know what heat and humidity does -- yep, fungus.

    I'm still haggling with the post office on this one. They don't want to pay the insurance claim because the man did not keep the box and packing. Meanwhile he had the lenses cleaned by someone in Italy and wants me to pay the repair bill.

    Headache.

    Bob

    ....


    [Ed.note: Based on my own (bad) experiences, I think this probably applies to most of the big volume shippers]
    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] Shipping goods via UPS

    Well,

    In a previous life, I worked for UPS and I am familiar with the way they handle packages.

    They use conveyor belts to sort them by destination and the machines are designed quite well with seamless steel walls so nothing gets shredded. Of course, they are not perfect and I have often seen belts jamming 18 feet high in the air and before they can be stopped there are boxes tumbling to the ground below.

    Small envelopes and flat packages can get trapped by the belts and torn up.

    Bigger packages with improper packed, heavy items can punch through the cardboard and spill the contents all over the place.

    By far, the most damage is inflicted by your friendly driver. On average, a dirver has more than 100 deliveries to make in a day (downtown guys have as many as 300). Their little trucks get packed to the gills and often boxes tumble down at turns, or when opening doors. most often the floor is piled up with boxes and then the driver just walks over your precious package with all his 200 pounds plus the weight of the box.

    If you use UPS, or any other shipping company, for that matter, I highly recommend you do the following:

    1.- wrap your items individually in several layers of bubble wrap

    2.- make sure that items do not touch each-other or the walls of the box (use biubble wrap, styrofoam or other things to separate them

    3.- add anything you can (styrofoam, newspapers, foam, etc) to create a barrier betweem the box walls and the items

    4.- put a sheet of paper with your address and the destination address INSIDE the box.

    5.- insure for 110% of value (replacement value, not actual cost which may be lower) to cover costs and shipping expense.

    6.- Never ship unique items via UPS because their insurance does not cover them

    7.- cross your fingers and strat praying :-)

    -_______________
    Andrei D. Calciu


    From Rollei Mailing List;
    Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000
    From: Erik Stiegler [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] bad UPS service, was ripoffs, ebay....

    I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Over the years I've recieved hundreds of packages from UPS, and I can recall exactly one problem. The end of a box had come undone, and the contents were visible, but undamaged. Every day UPS successfully delivers tens of thousands of packages. It's the horror stories that people remember. If your camera is packaged well, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

    Erik Stiegler


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] bad UPS service, was ripoffs, ebay....

    Not only do they mangle packages, as I said earlier, the system is designed to be gentle to packages, and the majority come through unscathed, however, there are always some poorly packed boxes that will have a tough time surviving.

    Did you know that manufacturers recommend re-using the same box only once? the corrugated cardboard is weakened by repeated manipulations (open, close, stack, etc), even if not crushed with heavy weights. On the third, fourth and consecutive uses the chances that the box will collapse increase dramatically. For instance, a box designed to withstand 250lbs crushing pressure when new, will probably give in at less than 180lbs pressure on the third use. Do you know what it takes to get 180lbs pressure per square inch? it takes a 6 pound object dropped 3 feet (i.e., the corner of another box).

    Also, did you know that corrugated boxes for supermarket products are built to a LESSER standard than shipping boxes? Yes, they are all designed for one time use and the retail packaging inside is factored in as additional support for the box strength. Next time you ship your 1000 dollar camera and save 2 bucks by using a discarded Sloppy Joe crate, remember this message.

    How do I know all this crap? When I was in college I worked for a box manufacturer in Ohio. Job paid $3.75 per hour and sucked, but in those days it was much more than flipping burgers, plus it included all the health and retirement benefits of the day. Needless to say, when summer came about I found a construction job that paid 11 bucks an hour and the box factory was history.

    they also Take a whole week to ship east to west

    Second Day Air gets there faster than Priority Mail, can be tracked in real time (within 3 to 20 minutes of each scan, the data shows up on the website) and includes the first 100 dollars worth of insurance. and are more expensive than the post office.

    There is a good reason for the price increase. There is a federal law which REQUIRES private carriers to charge at least TWICE the postal rate, even if the carrier could deliver for half the price.

    This is one of those rare examples of government doing a better job than the private sector.

    Nope, this is one example of Goverment dictating market prices.

    By the way, if you guys want a good investment tip, from an unbiased party, you should buy UPS stock on May 11. That is when the IPO lockup expires and all those foolish drivers will rush in to cash some of the stock they received when the company went public. The price will dip for a few days and then will come back to where it belongs (about 60 bucks per share).


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Mon, 08 May 2000
    From: Bob Shell [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] another ebayer to avoid

    The problem is that people want to charge "handling" on top of shipping. Sounds like this guy "handled" this camera a lot before shipping!!!

    I bought some stuff a while back from a well-known NYC auction house. I didn't know until after the fact that they charged $ 50 handling fee on top of shipping!!!!! That really burned me up.

    How much time and manpower can it take to wrap something in bubble wrap, put in a box, fill box with "peanuts" and tape shut???

    Bob

    ----------

    >From: Denton Taylor [email protected]
    >Subject: Re: [Rollei] another ebayer to avoid
    >Date: Mon, May 8, 2000, 11:46 AM
    >
    > Shaun, to ship a 5# box anywhere in the USA costs about $5 or less.
    > Internationally, that's another story, but this was not an international
    > shipment. No one in their right mind would ship a $30 camera fedx or other
    > overnight courier. Trust me, I ship and receive 20-30 packages a day. 
    


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:09:29 -0400 From: [email protected] Reply to: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Re: [Rollei] another ebayer to avoid Hell, you have to be on the web to do this anyway, why not use the USPS or UPS or FedEx web site 'rate calculator'? http://postcalc.usps.gov/

    http://www.ups.com/using/services/rave/rate.html

    http://www.fedex.com/us/rates/

    ....


    From: "Scott Gardner" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: PayPal
    Date: Thu, 18 May 2000

    Albert, it's interesting that you'd ask that question at this time.

    My experience: when PayPal works, it's very convenient and my experience is consistent with yours.

    However: I think they're having growing pains.

    They say it takes 10 days to 2 weeks for the address certification process that allows one full use of the 'pay' option via credit card or account transfer. Don't count on it. It took well over a month for my certification to arrive. And if you email them to ask about it, all you'll get is a form reply telling you it takes 10 days to 2 weeks. It took so long I gave up on them and lost a couple deals I had pending and irritating two sellers.

    Lately, they've had a LOT of down time, seemingly related to system problems. Can't log in, can't see history, etc. To complete a couple recent deals, I've had to log in in the wee hours of the morning.

    FWIW/Scott Gardner

    Albert Ma [email protected] wrote

    > Nothing to buy or sell....but how is everybody's experience with
    > Paypal.com?
    >
    > So far I have no problem with PayPal.  I have sent money to people, and
    > have received money from people. And the charges on my credit card have
    > been accurate. I suppose I'd love to be able to transfer money out of the
    > PayPal system to my own bank account, which I have just attempted. I need a
    > few more days to find out if it works fine. From my experience, there seems
    > to be no problem with sending money. But in a few days I will know if I can
    > easily get the money out of their system....if not, then I guess I'll buy
    > more things!
    >
    > The nature of money: if you believe in it, I believe in it, everybody else
    > believes in it, it has value and can be used to transact, store value, etc,
    > etc......electronic, paper, token---the forms don't matter.
    


    From: "Sarawoot Chittratanawat" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: PayPal
    Date: Thu, 18 May 2000

    How about the alternative Payplace (www.payplace.com)? Any one has experience with it?

    I have used Paypal for 2 months with no problem. But they often have downtime these days. I think they overrun the business.


    [Ed. note; some cautions re: paypal and related services...]
    From: Joe Blow [email protected]
    Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000
    Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
    Subject: Re: Astromart Woes

    There are many problems with PayPal as I see it...

    Even if you just want to pay a debt you MUST sign up for the service. That in itself is unacceptable to me, but I looked into it further at one point and ran, not walked, away. Does anyone who uses this actually read the terms of service? To use Paypal you must give them loads of personal information they have no business having (IMO). In return you basically get a bank account that pays no interest and is not insured. They either keep your credit card number which authorizes them to automatically charge any transaction above and beyond your balance but then (conveniently) they deny any liability for "unauthorised interception or use" or computer and telecommunications errors which they have nicely set you up for.

    The only way around this is to have a positive balance in your "account" via snail mail checks or electronic funds transfers. But then since said account is interest and insurance free nobody in their right mind would ever put significant amounts of money there, so this way of doing business is useless. Furthermore, if you are a seller, the only way to actually get your money is to request they mail you a check otherwise you'll never see it.

    I've heard others who ran into this brick wall as well. Bottom line is you cannot dispute a Paypal purchase which is one of the most common reasons cited to use it. The merchandise comes from the seller, not from Paypal, therefore your dispute lies with the seller, not Paypal. Paypal was just the service you used to process the card and is no more liable than the service a local merchant uses to process your card in the checkout lane. This information is also in the Paypal TOS that you agree to when you sign up. Amazing what the fine print says!


    From: Joe Blow [email protected]
    Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000
    Newsgroups: sci.astro.amateur
    Subject: Re: Astromart Woes

    "Many credit cards have some form of fraud protection and ways to dispute charges. Any disputes should be handled through your card provider rather than PayPal. If your card doesn't have policies to your liking, it's probably not tough to get another card."

    The problem isn't the credit card, it's what you might call a loop hole in the system. Paypal was only the service that charged your credit card and put the resulting cash into the hands of the seller. Paypal did nothing wrong, did nothing sneaky, did not scam, or do anything illegal. Paypal did everything they promised to do and everything you agreed to.

    Your beef really lies with the seller, but since they were not the ones who charged your card, no bank in the world can do a charge back. That is why you do not have the normal credit card protections when using Paypal.


    From: [email protected] (Kar Yan Mak)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Date: 30 May 2000
    Subject: Re: B&H Photo:

    >They ask me to send me the filters back and they claim they did not get
    >them and
    >now refuse to credit my account.
    

    I'm a longstanding B&H customer, although most of the time there has to be some kind of hassle involved. *But* they are always prompt to credit the refund into my credit card account.

    The filters might be lost in the mail and if you didn't buy insurance for them, you're losing everything. B&H cannot do anything over the operation of the USPS. That's why everytime I return something (to any mailorder store) I will get both insurance and the delivery confirmation (total of $1.20 extra) you'll definitely know if your package has arrived and if it's lost, there's the insurance you bought.

    Sincerely yours,
    Kar Yan Mak
    http://www.kyphoto.com


    From Panoramic Mailing List:
    Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000
    From: Placebase [email protected]
    Reply to: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: URGENT: Don't telephone that guy (was 'affiliation')

    This looks like a telephone billing scan to me. He is hoping everyone will telephone him to complain about his spam. If you do, you will probably get hit by large fees, even though he lists a "toll free" telephone number. This is a common scam, where users get connected to a 'pay-per-call' system via a seemingly toll free telephone number.

    Note one of his fake usernames is "pleasecall".

    ------- Forwarded Message

    Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000
    From: david [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: affiliation

    Hi,

    I found your site in webcrawler. I am looking for websites who are interested in either getting listed on our website or participating in co-op programs with us. We are kind of in a rush to get things going for the holiday season.

    If you have a moment, please give me a call at 877-835-9308 x616.

    Thank you for your time. If this note went to the wrong person at your company, I am sorry, I don't know which email address is the correct one. I will not be re-sending you anything, and you aren't on any kind of database.

    Best Regards,

    David Rubright
    877-835-9308 x616

    ------- End of Forwarded Message


    [Ed. note: be aware that ebay sellers are selling items you have bid on in auctions to side buyers and dealers while the auction is underway - I can only hope somebody at EBAY realizes they are being stiffed on the percentage monies they might have made on items that might have sold, if they had let the auction run its course, due to these side sales - and the rest of us get disgusted by being outbid by off-auction buyers...]
    Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: eBay Bid Cancellation Notice - Item 429704516: Hasselblad Waist level finder for Canon

    Dear eBay Community Member,

    The bid that you entered for the item http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=429704516 has been cancelled.

    You can view the reason provided for the cancellation by selecting the (bid history) link from the individual item page.

    Regards,
    eBay

    ------------

    [Ed. note: from cancellation site:]

    On Sep-11-00 at 12:37:03 PDT, seller added the following information:

    We are sorry to say but the item has been sold already.

    [Ed. note: and from EBAY's CYA:]

    Note: This is a Reserve Auction in which the reserve price was not met. Therefore, there is no transaction between the seller and the high bidder. Since there is no transaction, this item is not eligible for eBay services that protect buyers and sellers, such as transactional feedback, escrow or insurance. Those services are available only for items listed, bought and sold on eBay in compliance with our guidelines and policies.

    [Ed. note: in other words, you can't even complain in feedback etc. ;-(]


    Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000
    From: [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Indonesia Scam

    Recently we received an order over our web pages from one xxxx xxxxxxxx in Indonesia. The items were purchased with stolen credit card numbers. These credit cards were approved by the credit card company's. We shipped these items via UPS.

    We shipped these items via UPS fully insured. For over four thousand dollars.

    The person in Indonesia refused these items because he said he could not pay the customs duty on this package.

    We were notified by NDC which is the administrator of the credit card companies that these were stolen credit cards.

    We notified UPS of the situation since we tracked the items and they hadn't been delivered yet and we asked for their return.

    UPS at this point notified us that we had two options. We could have the package which we assumed was our merchandise returned to us and pay return shipping charges and pay duties and taxes assessed by Indonesian customs of $2393.00.

    My second option UPS advised me was to abandon the package and it would be held for one year and then auctioned off.

    My advice to anyone shipping any merchandise out of the USA to check the shipping terms with the person that is handling your order and make sure that you have the option of your package being returned to you intact without any excessive charges. Also make sure that the shipper that you use retains possession of your merchandise and that it is not released to someone else. I assumed that since I entrusted my package to UPS that it would be returned to me if I asked to do so which I did. That is not the case.

    This has to be one of the biggest scams going and I would advise you not to ship to any Asian country until this mess is cleared up, especially Indonesia.

    Oakdale-Bohemia Cameras Inc.

    Bohemia,NY..........................................email [email protected]

    Copies out to all camera and electronic stores on the internet.......


    [Ed. note: while I've had good luck with some of the complained about stores myself, many of the following tips may be useful to you too...]
    Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001
    From: Husband and Wife [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: How to buy cameras by mail order

    Below is a good list of things I compiled over a few years. I used to post this every week or so, but got busy with other things.

    Looking into the newsgroup, I see several requests for information about stores and mail order, so I thought I'd post it again, and maybe again and again if it's needed.

    I haven't updated it in quite a while, so comments for revisions are greatly appreciated.

    I used to be [email protected], but now I'm [email protected] or [email protected], but post your thoughts here instead of e-mailing me.

    Dave

    ==================
    Here it is...
    ==================

    Every single day there are posts in this newsgroup from people who have been cheated by certain mail-order stores. Before you purchase by mail-order, do the following,

    1. Know what you want to buy, and know what their advertised price is. If they don't have it, say "thanks" and hang up. Don't let someone on the phone talk you into a "bargain" that you are not knowledgeable about. You WILL regret it. NEVER let them talk you into a product you are not familiar and comfortable with. It WILL be inferior. If the price seems to be very low, be skeptical, then watch out for high shipping charges, extra charges for the warranty, etc.

    2. Read this newsgroup and ask for advice about equipment, prices, shipping charges, and any alternatives. You will get good advice! It drives all of us more experienced photographers and equipment buyers crazy to keep reading posts saying "I think I was just ripped-off." It is avoidable! Learn first, buy later. We like helping!

    3. Always purchase by charge card! Use Visa, Mastercard, American Express, whatever, but be certain you can call the card company and get help if you think the store is trying to dupe you. Don't give them your charge card number until you are absolutely certain you are ready to buy.

    4. When you start the conversation, ask for the salesman's name. First and last. If he doesn't want to give it to you, don't give him yours. Write it down.

    5. Ask if it is all definitely in stock. Ask if it will be shipped immediately. If it is on back-order, cancel the order and call back after you expect the product to be available. Otherwise, they may bill you today and ship it to you in six months, if at all.

    6. Ask if it is new, and if it has a USA FACTORY warranty. If you don't ask, you will get a "gray market" warranty. This means only that store, and not the factory, will honor the warranty.

    A USA STORE warranty isn't good enough.
    No warranty card in the shipment? Return it NOW.

    7. Ask what the return policy is. If you have read their advertisement in a magazine, look for printed information on the return policy.

    8. Ask them what the shipping and handling charges will be. They may not be able to give you an "exact" price, but they will give you an estimated price. If it sounds too high, cancel the order.

    9. Ask them how soon you will receive your order. 10 to 12 days is reasonable.

    10. For safety, you can use a fax to get your pricing, availability, and warranty information. That way, you will have a hard copy for the record. If they will not communicate by fax, consider taking your business elsewhere. You can use the fax to dispute charges with the card company if you need to.

    11. Be polite, and expect them to be polite. Expect them to answer your questions patiently, but understand that they don't have all day to explain features, etc. Be reasonable. They aren't there to teach you over the phone. You should know all this before you call. If they are abusive, tell them so, and hang up.

    12. If you don't receive your entire order, call and ask why. If you don't receive the balance within a few days, cancel the balance. Call your card company and tell them you have canceled the order for goods not received and will not pay for them.

    13. If your products are defective, incomplete, no warranty cards, etc., call and tell them you are returning it. Then, return it immediately by registered mail or UPS.

    14. Watch out for those add-ons. Be grateful if the salesman recommends you buy a battery for your new camera, but if he suggests things that you are wary about, filters, flash, etc., say "No thank you. I can't afford that yet", then do your homework before buying it.

    15. Know exactly what you are supposed to get with your purchase. Some storew will take a box that contains a camera, and remove stuff the manufacturer wants you to have, like the strap. Then they will try to sell it to you for more money. Know what you are buying.

    Some of the stores that are most highly recommended by users of this group are:

    B&H Photo, New York City
    Camera World, Oregon
    Del's Camera, California (a tad pricey?)
    Keh Camera Brokers, Georgia
    Adorama, New York City
    Charlotte Camera, North Carolina
    Camera Exchange International, Swansboro (used equipment)
    Porters, Iowa (pricey)
    M&M Photo (received several good reviews)
    Unique Photo,  New Jersey
    Calumet
    Access Discount Camera
    

    Many writers have complained about the following stores. It is recommended that you do not do business with them:

    Cambridge Camera Exchange, New York City
    Smile Photo, New York City
    AAA Camera Exchange, NYC
    Focus Camera, New York City
    Beach Photo, Maine, New Jersey, Florida
    Wall Street Camera, New York City (some good reviews also)
    Su's, New Jersey
    Abe's of Maine
    Honest Abe, New York City
    CCI, New York City
    CamAmerica
    Cameta Camera, NY
    Family Photo and Video
    Camera City
    Discovery Camera, Linden, NJ
    

    My personal experience is only with B&H, who was wonderful, and Cambridge, who lied to me. The rest I've gleaned from reading the NG.

    I'll try to post this often for the benefit of new readers. Comments are very welcome.

    Please post them here.

    Dave


    From Rangefinder Mailing List;
    Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001
    From: Stephen Gandy [email protected]
    Subject: Pay Pal Fraud Scam

    If you get an email saying you got $$ from Pay Pal, but it does NOT GO DIRECTLY INTO YOUR PAY PAL ACCOUNT, so you have go Log into a "PayPal" account to have the money transferred, ITS A SCAM.

    PayPal money transfers go directly into your account, WITHOUT you having to log into anything.

    A thief is making it appear the email comes from PayPal, so you will log into a fake screen with your passwords, so they can use your password and empty your account.

    Stephen Gandy


    From: "Antonio Plaza" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000
    Subject: BEWARE OF CHEAP PRICES ADS IN PHOTO MAGAZINES.

    Hi: I was recently shopping for a new Nikon F5 camera and a Nikon 20mm f/2.8 lens. I bought a Popular Photography magazine and started checking the ads listed there for every store, specially the ones located in the NYC area. I found that some of them, like ROYAL CAMERA, CAMERAWORLD, REGENCY CAMERA, DISCOVERY CAMERA and BROADWAY PHOTO had the camera and the lens listed much cheaper than some of the biggest and more popular dealers like B&H Photo Video.

    I started making phone calls to order the camera and lens, but then I realized that these advertised prices were nothing else than a BIG SCAM.

    When you call, they tell you they have the stuff in stock ready for shipment, then they start PUSHING an EXTENDED WARRANTY very hard. After you keep saying NO, I DON'T WANT ANY EXTENDED WARRANTY, then they try to push the BATTERY PACK, and the scammers make it sound like you won't be able to use the camera unless you buy the "BATTERY PACK" that comes separate, I asked them if this was a NIKON item, then they put me on hold for about few minutes and came back to say that the battery pack was not a Nikon item, but it was still needed to operate the camera.

    Then I told them I DID NOT WANT ANY BATTERY PACK either, just the camera and the lens. Ok, we'll send both items to you, they said, giving me a total that was WAY OVER the one listed in the magazine, I asked WHY? they said because of the SHIPPING/HANDLING Charge that was more than $180.00 and I live in New Jersey. I kept CANCELING the order and calling other places, we'll they kept giving me the same B.S. over and over again, and one of the last stores I tried, the guy even said that the ORDER WAS PLACED ALREADY, AND IF I WANTED TO CANCEL IT I HAD TO CALL ON A WEEKDAY FROM 11:00AM TO 3:00PM at a NON-TOLL FREE NUMBER TO CANCEL IT, so I replied, EITHER YOU CANCEL THIS ORDER NOW, OR THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY WILL AS SOON AS I CALL THEM, then he agreed to cancel it.

    I ended up calling one of the big photo dealers, and paying the "high" price that ended up to be lower than what these SCAMMERS mentioned above wanted for it.

    BE CAREFUL AND STAY AWAY FROM THEM, THEY ADVERTISE THOSE ULTRA-LOWER PRICES SO PEOPLE CALLS AND THEN THEY RIP THEM OFF.

    I'LL KEEP BUYING FROM B&H PHOTO, ALWAYS HONEST, ALWAYS SMOOTH. Happy Holidays for you all, if you have any experience like this, let other people know.


    From Rollei Mailing LIst;
    Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:59:25 -0400 From: Evan J Dong Reply to: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where to (NOT)shop Rollei in New York

    Depending if you are looking for either new or used Rollei equipment. Meaning are you in the market for the newer 6000 series equipment or just TLR stuff?

    Some other source if you are looking at SL66 and TLR equipment:

    NYC Vicinity

    1. Lens & Repro = You can occasionally find a good deal here. The gear here tends to be on the expensive side.
    2. Camera Traders = You can bargain here and the gear here are in very good condition.
    3. Ken Hansen = Have to deal if you are ready, but good selection here. (SL66 , 6000 series, & TLR)
    4. B & H Photo Choice of New and Used.
    5. Wall Street Camera
    6. Adorama Camera

    Now if you havew time and a car, you should try these two shops that is outside the NYC area.

    Outside of NYC - Long Island

    1. Koh's Camera = Very good selection of used Rolleis (35mm and TLR)
    2. Cameta Camera

    Evan Dong

    [email protected] writes:

    > Hey, B&H is a great store! No problems, mate. It's just that Wall
    > Street,
    > Adorama and Ken Hansen have much more Rollei stock. Simple as that.
    > Arthur
    


    [Ed. note: a month of computer tag?]
    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected] (Fshadoan)
    Date: Sat Sep 29 2001
    [1] YAHOO AUCTION WARNING

    On August 26, 2001, I was defrauded of nearly two thousand dollars by a clever Yahoo Auction thief. Since then my repeated efforts to contact Yahoo to dscover if they have any credit card, address, or other information concerning the defrauding seller has generated meaningless computer reponses but no human contact and no information about the registered Yahoo thief. I have reported the fraud to the FBI and do not think that there is anything more that I can do. The lack of any human response from Yahoo is most disturbing. I would not use Yahoo auction again.

    George Shadoan


    Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999
    From: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] camera collector widow scams

    _You_ may not be confused about the ownership of your cameras and lenses, but your heirs probably will be unless you keep a lot better records than most of us ;-)!!

    actually, the scams I have seen described are aimed at the widows of camera and similar high $$ well-known collectors. The widows don't know and can't figure out the ownership status of all this stuff, and if they get a letter (on fancy letterhead yet) claiming that their husband owes $2,098 for camera ######## (actually bought on ebay, or from collector's meeting display by a sharp thief, or other records from auction sales etc where this innocent seeming data is available) - and the bereaved widow finds the camera - well, they often either pay up this "debt" or they "return" the camera and wait forever for the "refund" of the "deposit" on the camera. Another scam approach is to send a nearly worthless but old looking camera (a $10-15 value oldie Kodak box camera, say) with a "repair bill" for $XYZ to the spouse. Clever, huh? Attacking your spouse at their most vulnerable time - but it works for some despicable thieves.

    the point related to rollei collectors in particular is to make sure that you have records and document for your spouse and explain to them enough about your expensive camera collection so they aren't taken in by such scams if and when you die (usually ahead of them statistically). If you have cameras in/out on consignment sales or repairs, keep an updated list of those as well. It can be pretty easy to videotape and document your collection both for insurance purposes and in case of your death, along with prices of items, which may be quite surprising to a non-photographer (e.g., a B&W $150 polarizing filter). Or perhaps you would prefer for all your old rollei stuff to get sold for $2 or so each at a yard sale?

    for more related scams, see the links at Jeff Albro's IMPACT! used photo gear pages at http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/albro.html - esp. the bogus money order scams that seem to be popular lately too...

    regards to all

    bobm

    On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Marc James Small wrote:

    > At 11:42 AM 1999-03-03 -700, Roger Beamon wrote:
    > >Good try, but nah! If true they wouldn't bother with any digits at
    > >all. I think the dealers and others try to give enough significant  
    > >digits to catagorize the equipment to the satisfaction of potential
    > >buyer's, but not give away the whole thing to the nasties.
    >
    > Roger
    >
    > The reason stated by those that do this is precisely as I stated earlier:
    > it is just simpler to give only the sufficient digits to indicate the
    > series.
    >
    > The whole idea of there being some grand sanctity in knowing the ENTIRE
    > serial number is foolishness.  Under US law, that doesn't give a potential
    > thief any leverage with the authorities in trying to get a lens away from
    > my ownership -- UNLESS the lens was, indeed, a stolen lens, and I am
    > reasonably certain none of mine are such.  And, in any event, I know from
    > whom I have bought my gear, so it would be a simple matter to obtain a
    > refund from them.
    >                             
    >
    > Marc
    >
    > [email protected]  FAX:  +540/343-7315
    


    Date: 26 Oct 1999
    From: [email protected] (ClassicVW)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Re: New Vs. Refurbished Camera: How to differentiate?

    >I would to know how to differentiate whether a camera is new or company
    >refurbished (bought in the USA with a warranty card)?
    >
    >Also, what difference it make in terms of performance of the camera?
    

    I bought a refurbished Nikon many years ago and had no trouble with it. Refurbished just means there was something wrong that was repaired by the manufacturer under warranty and returned to a retailer for resale. They are industinguishable from brand new, and manufacturers state they may be even "better", since they get a thorough exam before leaving the manufacturer. The dealer I bought mine from (Central Camera, Chicago) was completely honest about the camera, but another dealer could certainly get away with not telling you. P.S.- Mine was in the original box, and Nikon had stamped "refurbished" in red ink inside the cover flap. No other signs were there. So, it's certainly "buyer beware" if you don't get a box.

    Hope this helps a bit,
    George S.


    Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999
    From: "baldo" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Re: New Vs. Refurbished Camera: How to differentiate?

    Where I work, refurbished cameras are a better deal than new. New cameras come from China, Indonesia, etc. They're inspected/repaired here in the U.S., usually by people who know what they're doing.

    The only reputable source of refurbed cameras I'm aware of is cameraworld.com, which frequently offers them on their auction site.


    rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    From: "Randy Miyazaki(Go Dodgers Blue !)" [email protected]
    [1] Re: Mail Order Price Comparison - Questions
    Date: Sat May 01 17:55:26 CDT 1999

    >   "Scott" [email protected] wrote:
    > > I'm looking to buy a Canon A2E with a 28-135 USM IS lens and looked  through
    > > the back of the photo magazines and on line and found the following   prices:
    > >
    > >    Company           Body          Lens          Total
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >     B&H                 649             470            1119
    > >     World               499             440              939
    > >     Cambridge      475             430              905
    > >     Camera Club  555             450            1005
    > >     Tristate             610             440           1050
    > >      Family              540             420             960
    > >      PhotoGraphic  540             420            960
    > >      Discovery        540             420             960
    > >      Smile               540             440             980
    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Range                   174             50              214
    > >
    > > So . . .I'm wondering why such a wide range of prices for the "same"
    > > equipment (interesting that the lenses, although about the same  price, have
    > > about a third of the price variation that the bodies do).
    > >
    > > Is the equipment the same from each place?
    > >
    > > Is there more to a mail order house than just pleasant order takers?  (I'll
    > > put up with a fair amount of verbal abuse for $214!).
    > >
    > > Any ideas?
    > >
    > > Scott
    

    scott,

    many mailorder firms use low price advertisements to tease customers into calling, then change the price over the phone by claiming exchange rate fluctuations, or "that's for the taiwan made canon, the japan made unit costs more", etc. a.k.a. "bait & switch". personally i have found (non-exhaustive) two companies that are especially good at carrying out verbal instuctions, b&h & cwo. with all others i call & confirm prices 1st WITHOUT ordering over the phone, then type up the order, and FAX it in, listing MY non-negotiable purchasing policy, & terms and conditions, such as "NO BACKORDERS", "ORDER MUST SHIP BY MAY 5 1999 OR CANCEL", "NEW", "GRAY", "USA", "I'M RELATED TO JACKIE CHAN AND VISIT NEW YOUR CITY ALL THE TIME" :-> etc.

    there are times when you absolutely want to get the lowest price possible, but you don't know if you can trust them, and you keep geting put on hold or run into flak over the phone. in these instances, i would FAX in a "request for quotation" listing the items, new/gray, and asking the price, in-stock status, etc., and instruct them to respond by FAX. (this advice i got from a full-time parts buyer at a local silicon valley electronics contract manufacturing firm). if they are serious then they will respond in writing.

    ...randy

    ------------------------+~~~~~~~~~~~~ Boycott Javacidal Companies ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    my photo website: | Randy Miyazaki +1 408 452 0788 [email protected]
    http://www.FreezeIt.Com | San Jose CA USA Fax-1602 [email protected]


    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected] (Latent Image Photography)
    [1] Smile Photo - Watch Shipping charges!!!
    Date: Sun May 02 1999

    -- I recently ordered a nicad battery pack for a Metz 45 series flash from Smile Photo. I wasn't "Smiling" when I got my invoice! The battery pack weighs at most a pound (5AA's & some plastic) and is smaller than a can of pop. $54.95 for the pack was reasonable, but not the $19.95 they charge for "Shipping/handling and insurance" - not NY to OH via UPS ground!

    Beware: It seems that some dealers profits are made in their "handling" charges.

    In the future - Smile will be my source of last resort.

    Cheers,

    K. Wagner

    [Ed. Note: Thanks to K. Wagner for highlighting this issue; actually, I've heard of far worse, with charges of $50+ for shipping a $10-20 item, and this practice is just one of the many ways in which some photo dealers do make money.

    The only solution is to inquire about what the shipping charges will be and total charge before you okay the order and give your credit card number.

    Frankly, I don't find a $20 s/h charge to be excessive, and I wouldn't fault Smile Photo or other dealers for such moderate charges. But you and I as buyers have to ask to find those dealers charging excessive amounts.

    Conversely, when I wanted to buy a small item from KEH recently, I emailed for an alternative to their minimum shipping charge (circa $12). They responded with a note that they could ship slower UPS ground for less, for circa $6. So you can work with many good dealers to find a lower cost alternative for even small and modest profit buys. Of course, I am likely to continue to buy from KEH in the future, as in the past, for this approach to customer service...]


    Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000
    From: "NV5E" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.35mm
    Subject: Will only buy from B+H in the future!

    I have bought from many of the mail order firms in the past, usually with poor results. I have been charged 9% shipping for a $500 lense that weighed 1.5lb, $45 for a $15 uv filter, recieved gray market lenses instead of what I ordered etc. A friend told me about B+H. I order a new flash from them, I recieved what I ordered, they didn't try to sell men anthing else, and I was only charged standard UPS rates for shipping. The cheaper prices at some of the other mail order companies are never cheap in the long run.

    Will


    [Ed. note: thanks to Angelo for these notes!...]
    From: "A. P." [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001
    Subject: potential of fraud scaring buyers/sellers away?

    I have browsed this newsgroup for over a year now. In the recent months I have seen some posts talking about the reduced volume of forsale items in the newsgroup. The proposed explanation was that people got scared away by some cases of fraud publicized in the newsgroup itself and also by articles in traditional media about fraud on the internet. It was suggested that people found refuge in the safe even of e-bay, where apparantly buyers are somewhat protected against fraud. I have indeed noticed that a larger proportion of the posts in the newsgroup are now For Auction posts.

    I found it ironical when today I read an article (in Computer World Canada, March 23, 2001, p 4) that the FBI indicates that 66% of all internet fraud complaints were for on-line auction fraud. This was followed by non-delivered merchandise or payment at 22% and credit or debit card fraud at nearly 5%. One must however not forget to take into account the volume of transactions occurring via auctions versus any other type of auctions. So these figures alone do not indicate that the probability of being defrauded is higher in internet auctions.

    I personnaly find it sad to see the reduced volume of activity on this newsgroup. It seems to turn into a bulletin board where people advertize their e-bay auctions.

    About a year ago I sold a few items on the newsgroup. In the last months I have noticed that posting an ad on photo.net is the best bet when selling something.

    my opinion that I wanted to share....


    Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00
    From: [email protected] (Willem-Jan Markerink)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace,rec.photo.marketplace.35mm
    Subject: Re: paying by which method

    "DolbyNR" [email protected] wrote:

    >how do you guys usually pay when you buy something from overseas from
    >someone else (2nd)?
    

    You basically have 4 options, but only 3 work in all situations:

    1) Cash by mail, possibly registered mail:
    Perfect for small & medium amounts, but requires trust on both sides of course (less with registered mail).

    2) Postal Money Order:
    Doesn't work between some countries with marginal postal infrastructure/compatibility (USA-Holland is one of them, in both directions....transaction takes up to 3 months (no kidding!).

    3) Bank Money Order (aka Cashier's Check?):
    You buy this at your bank, send it by (registered) mail (or have your bank send it), and seller cashes it at his bank. Significant bank fee (US$20).

    4) Direct bank-to-bank transfer:
    Again done at your bank, no mail involved, but again significant bank fee (US$20). Safest option, since you need virtually all possible details of both seller and his bank (address etc) before your bank can start the procedure. Check all options, sometimes there is a fast and a slow service, differing in both speed and cost (overnight vs 1-week service).

    (posted & mailed)

    --
    Bye,

    Willem-Jan Markerink


    From Rollei Mailing List:
    Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT: Money Transfer to Germany

    Lucian, and all interested in dealing with German transactions,

    I have made numerous purchases from Germany, not just cameras, but also cars and other big ticket items. Here is a quick run-down of my favorite way of handling transactions:

    1.- small amounts (usually 200 bucks or less), I send cash via postal service (well wrapped, usually in aluminum foil to make sure nobody can see the contents. Best method to send it is Registered Mail which is quite secure. It takes 7-10 days for registered mail to get to the destination.

    2.- medium sum amounts - less than 1000 bucks I handle via travelers checks, personal checks, or international money orders (Germany has been excluded off the list for postal money orders as of July 1, 2000). German banks charge between DM5 to DM20 to process an international check. Shopping around for low fees really pays off here. Sending these via Global Priority Mail gets them to the destination in 4 days for a $5 stamp.

    3.- large amounts - over 1000 bucks are best handled via wire transfer. My bank charges 30 dollars, the German bank charges up to DM50, so overall your transaction cost can be as high as 50 bucks or so. Takes only 3 days to effect such a transfer. Over the years I bought several cars this way and I never had any problems.

    4.- any amount - any amount can be handled via credit card when this option is available. the only flag here is that the payee received DM not $ in this transaction. However, the benefit is that the best exchange rates apply. You get almost the rate printed in the Wall Street Journal, because banks routinely exchange more than $50,000 per day. Second benefit here is the float. You can play for up to 25 days on the bank's money and in a business transaction you have a recourse through the credit card issuer (this may not apply to non-US cardholders).

    -_______________
    Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)


    Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000
    From: Kheehua Hung [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace,rec.photo.marketplace.35mm,rec.photo.marketplace.darkroom
    Subject: Re: paying by which method

    I buy an international bank draft in the post office. If to USA, the int'l bank draft is in US dollars on a USA bank. If in UK, in punds on a UK bank. The seller cashes it with no problems and no fees charge. On my end I pay about US$3 for buying the int'l bank draft.

    The other way round, I can't cash personal chcks (from USA, UK, whatever). MO or bank draft- I incur bank charges of US$15 (minimum) and 2 months waiting for the money.

    So, for me, it is easy to buy but difficult to sell. Buyers are reluctant to send money(cash) by post to me. Small amounts ($10, $20 or even $50 US) but $200- no way they send it to me. I can't sell my lenses, cameras and bigger value items easily.

    ==


    Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000
    From: [email protected] (Chuck Ross)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Pop Photo's new Mail Order rules

    I got my Pop Photo today and was rather interested in their sudden "new" policy about mail order dealers.

    I also noticed that a few regular advertisers are missing, such as Cambridge and AAA. The ones that have ads seem to be saying, "No bait-and- switch here! We give you -ONLY_ what you want; no added stuff and no phony shipping charges.

    However, I also note that at least one advertiser has some pretty alarming shipping rates: such as minimum of $7.99, up to $100, 6.5%, up to $500 6% and over $1100, 5%. So, for shipping a Nikon camera that weighs 3 pounds but costs over $1000, the shipping charge would be $55??

    Good grief!

    And then, these same guys are now saying that there's a _minimum_ 10% restocking fee for returned items. What does that exactly mean? They could charge you perhaps 20% if they wanted to?

    So, they ship you the wrong camera...you ordered an N90s and receive an F90x. You call up and voice your displeasure loudly. They tell you to send it back, then ship you the correct item but bill you a 10% restocking fee plus charge you for shipping again ($70). So, they've billed you twice for the correct camera and have already made the profit on it.

    Nice business.

    --
    Images
    Digital and Film-Based Photography
    http://www.members.home.net/ckross


    Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000
    From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Re: Pop Photo's new Mail Order rules

    .....(above post)

    It's creative. But, then I'll bet is the same old 'lowest advertised price' bait & switch artistes.

    And it is better than it used to be with these devils. Not long ago someone beat his breast and confessed in public one of the scam shops charged him $152 for shipping on a $300 camera.

    Progress in small steps, maybe.

    Over the years I have come to the opinion the scam outfits serve a useful purpose, as do all God's critters. They teach not to be greedy, and not to whore after the lowest price. And they separate idiots from their money, as an idiot with money is a dangerous thing. And last, but not least, they keep the memory of Barnum alive.

    Who knows, B&H may fund them, just to make B&H look so good.

    --
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio [email protected]


    From: [email protected] (Twilight16)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: (person's name) CANCELED $800 M.O. *WARNING*
    Date: 27 May 1999

    (person's name) purchased an item from me and a piece was accidentally left out of the package *not by my fault, but by UPS when they inspected it for shipment (common policy now)*. The piece was recovered and sent to (person's name). He then canceled a MONEY ORDER for $800. Anyone else under the assumption that a money order cannot be canceled? Yes, that's what I thought! I am persuing this matter with legal actions.

    [ed. note: just fyi re: money orders can be canceled, person's name deleted]


    From: [email protected] (MHanes1060)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: Possiable Fraud
    Date: 22 Apr 1999

    Post office is no help. A guy in Brooklyn scammed at least 4 people a year or so ago. PO said we had not proven fraudlent intention on the phony checks. They just do not have the manpower to follow all these complaints.

    George


    Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999
    From: Jeff Bezos To: [email protected]
    Subject: Amazon.com Auctions is now open

    Dear Amazon.com Eyes Subscriber,

    I'm excited to tell you that we've opened Amazon.com Auctions.

    Auctions is something truly different for Amazon.com. In the past, if you bought something at our store, you were always buying directly from us. Now, with Auctions, our community of almost 8 million customers can sell anything they want to on the Amazon.com Web site. Letting millions of sellers participate at Amazon.com is another way for us to give you the broadest selection possible. You'll find rare books and signed first editions, rare music, vintage toys, antiques, sports memorabilia, collectibles of all kinds, etc., etc.

    We're also doing something bold with Auctions--we're guaranteeing buyers a safe auction experience, and we're doing it on the honor system. Essentially, we'll take your word for it if you're ever the victim of fraud. There are some restrictions; for example, the guarantee doesn't apply to purchases above $250 (the vast majority of items sell for significantly less than that). The guarantee is described in full on the Web site.

    Finally, and most important, we'd like to take this opportunity to recommit to you. In everything we do, we'll try to be the best, the most innovative, and the most customer-obsessed. That's as true as ever for books; it's true for music and videos; it's true for auctions; and it'll be true for everything new we do.

    We've worked hard to bring you Amazon.com Auctions and we're super-proud of it. I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to use. Please give it a try:

    http://www.amazon.com

    Thanks for your support.


    Sincerely,

    Jeff Bezos
    Founder & CEO
    Amazon.com


    From: [email protected] (Greg Werstiuk)
    Subject: Re: i-escrow SUCKS!!
    Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 05:10:20 GMT
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion and perhpas you've suffered abuse at the hand of a buyer.

    I find value in a service such as i-escrow.

    As a buyer:

    I can charge a significant purchase to my credit card when it might not otherwise be possible.

    If the seller ships me a brick, incorrect merchandise, something in condition other than advertised, improperly packages it, or doesn't ship at all, my funds are protected.

    As a seller:

    I know the funds are good before shipment.

    Someone can buy an item from me and use their credit card when

    they might not otherwise want or be able to complete the transaction.

    While a seller may include such a clause as terms of the sale, i-escrow does not arbitrarily operate with a blanket "money back if not satisfied" policy.

    They only require that the involved parties lives up to the terms of the sales agreement. Seller must clearly and accurately define conditon of the merchandise and all terms of the sale before transacting at i-escrow.


    Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998
    From: "R. Peters" [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: [Rollei] Placing cameras "on consignment".

    Bob Shell mentioned that when Classic Collections closed, it was on short notice. And, apparently they had cameras on consignment. This raises a point about putting a lot of cameras--or anything else--in a store on consignment.

    In the USA, at least, if a store has not been paying taxes, the government can come in suddenly and without notice and close it, seizing the inventory and selling it to pay taxes due.

    Had a friend who sold his art glass regularly through a store on a consignment basis. I don't know if he didn't have receipts because he sold through them regularly and the relationship became casual (no receipts), but he told me that the items had to be labeled as being "on consignment, property of XYZ". In any case, one day the store was locked up, and his stuff was sold along with the store's inventory. He fought it, but was unsuccessful. I would be a little careful about putting a large lot of cameras or anything else in one store on consignment all at one time without checking further.

    bob


    [Editor's Note: the following posting has some useful hints for buyers. You should probably refer to the related Danny Gonzalez CWOL- Used Equipment Buying Guide and the links to camera store reviews at Jeff Albro's IMPACT Used Camera Dealer Pages for a more numerical view of camera store issues. My own experience with some of the ''bad'' listed stores in the poster's list is that some are really bad, and others delivered as expected with no problems. So your mileage may vary. But these hints should help you avoid some obvious problem areas and issues which often cause buyers grief...]

    From: [email protected] ([email protected])
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: How to buy (retail) cameras by mail order
    Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998

    Every single day there are posts in the newsgroups from people who have been cheated by certain mail-order stores. Before you purchase by mail-order, do the following

    1. Know what you want to buy, and know what their advertised price is. If they dont have it, say "thanks" and hang up. Dont let someone on the phone talk you into a "bargain" that you are not knowledgeable about. You WILL regret it. NEVER let them talk you into a product you are not familiar and comfortable with. It WILL be inferior. If the price seems to be very low, be skeptical, then watch out for high shipping charges, extra charges for the warranty, etc.

    2. Read this newsgroup and ask for advice about equipment, prices, shipping charges, and any alternatives. You will get good advice! It drives all of us more experienced photographers and equipment buyers crazy to keep reading posts saying "I think I was just ripped-off." It is avoidable! Learn first, buy later. We like helping!

    3. Always purchase by charge card! Use Visa, Mastercard, American Express, whatever, but be certain you can call the card company and get help if you think the store is trying to dupe you. Dont give them your charge card number until you are absolutely certain you are ready to buy.

    4. When you start the conversation, ask for the salesmans name.

    5. Ask if it is all definitely in stock. Ask if it will be shipped immediately. If it is on back-order, cancel the order and call back after you expect the product to be available. Otherwise, they may bill you today and ship it to you in six months, if at all.

    6. Ask if it is new, and if it has a USA FACTORY warranty.
    If you dont ask, you will get a "gray market" warranty.
    This means only that store, and not the factory, will honor the warranty. A USA STORE warranty isnt good enough.
    No warranty card in the shipment? Return it NOW.

    7. Ask what the return policy is. If you have read their advertisement in a magazine, look for printed information on the return policy.

    8. Ask them what the shipping and handling charges will be. They may not be able to give you an "exact" price, but they will give you an estimated price. If it sounds too high, cancel the order.

    9. Ask them how soon you will receive your order. 10 to 12 days is reasonable.

    10. For safety, you can use a fax to get your pricing, availability, and warranty information. That way, you will have a hard copy for the record. If they will not communicate by fax, take your business elsewhere. You can use the fax to dispute charges with the card company if you need to.

    11. Be polite, and expect them to be polite. Expect them to answer your questions patiently, but understand that they dont have all day to explain features, etc. Be reasonable. You should know all this before you call. If they are abusive, tell them so, and hang up.

    12. If you dont receive your entire order, call and ask why. If you don't receive the balance within a few days, cancel the balance. Call your card company and tell them you have canceled the order for goods not received and will not pay for them.

    13. If your products are defective, incomplete, no warranty cards, etc., call and tell them you are returning it. Then, return it immediately by registered mail or UPS.

    14. Watch out for those add-ons. Be grateful if the salesman recommends you buy a battery for your new camera, but if he suggests things that you are wary about, filters, flash, etc., say "No thank you. I cant afford that yet", then do your homework before buying it. Some of the stores that are most highly recommended by users of this group are:

    B&H Photo, New York City
    Camera World, Oregon
    Dels Camera, California (a tad pricey?)
    Keh Camera Brokers, Georgia
    Adorama, New York City
    Charlotte Camera, North Carolina
    Camera Exchange International, Swansboro (used equipment)
    Porters, Iowa (pricey)
    M&M Photo (received several good reviews)
    Unique Photo, New Jersey
    Calumet
    Access Discount Camera

    Many writers have complained about the following stores. It is recommended that you do not do business with them:

    Cambridge Camera Exchange, New York City
    Smile Photo, New York City
    AAA Camera Exchange, NYC
    Focus Camera, New York City
    Beach Photo, Maine, New Jersey, Florida
    Wall Street Camera, New York City (some good reviews also)
    Sus, New Jersey
    Abes of Maine
    Honest Abe, New York City
    CCI, New York City
    CamAmerica
    Cameta Camera, NY
    Family Photo and Video
    Camera City

    My personal experience is only with B&H, who was wonderful, and Cambridge, who lied to me. The rest Ive gleaned from reading the NG. Ill try to post this often for the benefit of new readers. Comments are very welcome.


    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected]
    [1] Re: Buyer Alert
    Date: Sat Jun 27 19:29:49 CDT 1998

    
    snip...
    >:|
    >:|My card is listed as a Visa.... yes, I use it with ATM's, however
    >:|before when I've used the card for a purchase in a store the hit
    >:|didn't come for a day or 2. I just won't use it again for mail order
    >:|purchases... learned my lesson.
    

    Beware when using your "debit" card for mailorder purchases. I realize that it too says Visa or MasterCard just like the regular credit cards but I learned the hard way that they do NOT offer the same protections.

    I recently found out on a mailorder purchase gone bad that you cannot get credits or refunds because of a problem. Once a debit is made to your account you cannot get it reversed no matter what the reason.

    I have since quit using my debit card and started using a regular Visa just for mailorder, telephone orders,etc.


    From: "Mike" [email protected]
    Subject: BBB & Cambridge
    Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998

    Watching the dueling wits over Shutterbug & Cambridge ( some of it down right funny) I have noticed the BBB being referred to. I once lived in NYC for 5 years and during that time I worked for a very small camera store on Lexington Ave.. One of my jobs was to answer complaint inquiries from the BBB. WHAT A JOKE.......First of all many.....yes many....of the complaints made to the BBB weren't worth responding to. Complaints like, I bought a TV there was no antenna (rabbit ears) or there wasn't a lens cap with the camera I bought. These people NEVER came back to the store to complain.

    We even had a person try to return a stereo they had purchased and smashed.....they claimed it was that way when they opened the box and demanded a refund......the store would not take the stereo back so the customer filed a complaint with the BBB.....which I ignored....along with stacks of other worthless complaints. My point is this...we bent over backward for the customer and we STILL had complaints made against us, LOTS of them and there were only 6 people working the store. The owner & or his partner were there every day.

    AND GEE........GUESS WHAT.....some of the complaints were made by people who were just trying to rip off the store. SO......before complaints to the NYC BBB is brought into the conversation.........one should know what the complaints are about.

    Just my 2 cents.....having lived and worked in the Big Apple........

    Mike Jenkins
    Medium format service
    PDX


    Escrow Agents for Major Photo Buys

    From: SellSafe Online [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Use credit cards to sell your classified items!
    Date: 1 Aug 1998

    SellSafe Online is a unique Internet trade/escrow service for classified sales that allows you to list your items for payment through a secure server.

    The benefits of this are immediately obvious: you can sell your stuff faster and more safely! Buyers have the added convenience of payment with their VISA or MasterCard, and the seller has the extra security of knowing that the funds will be forwarded immediately.

    Please check out our website at http://www.sellsafe.com

    Thank you for taking the time to read this brief commercial advertisement.

    [Editor's Note: Robert's email below suggests one way to protect yourself from potential ripoffs by using escrow agents for major purchases:]

    From: Robert Abramowitz [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: EBAY-protecting against seller ripoffs
    Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997

    Check out the "after the auction" area at EBAY. There are a couple of escrow services that will hold your payment until you have examined the item. You have 1 day to determine if the merchandise is as described; if not, you return it and the escrow agent returns your money. I have purchased several items, not all of them photographic, in this way. (In fact, this is a good way to purchase through the marketplace.) In every case that I have been a serious potential bidder, I have e-mailed the seller to see if that arrangement was acceptable; in one case it was not, and I therefore did not bid and told the seller why not. In all other cases it was ok with the seller. The fee for the escrow was minimal when compared to the price of the merchandise.

    In addition, and this is probably paranoid, I always open any equipment sold to me by a private party while in the presence of a witness (luckily my next door neighbor is a photo buff), just in case I would need independent corroboration of condition. Hasn't happened yet.

    There will always be nogoodnicks selling whatever; luckily they are in the minority (to date, at least) both here and on EBAY.

    Happy holiday to all.

    [Ed. note: EBAY is a major online photography auction at www.ebay.com]

    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: "Klaus Thoma" [email protected]
    [1] Re: regarding purchasing over the internet
    Date: Thu May 28 19:13:02 CDT 1998

    I just purchased a Military version of a Graflex XLRF from a seller on eBay. I used TradeSafe as an escrow agent. It cost $30.00 for a transaction that was over $600.00, a small price to pay for piece of mind (and the seller split the cost). Visit www.tradesafe.com for full details, but basically you send the money to TradeSafe, seller ships product to you, you review product and inform TradeSafe if you accept the item. They're holding your money, so if you don't like the item, you'll get your money back.


    From: "Antonio Plaza" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: TO AVOID BEING RIPPED OFF!!!!
    Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998

    For all of you interested in purchasing equipment from postings on this ng, or from any other source on the Internet, do not trust nobody, and start doing your transactions the safe way, using "Tradesafe Online", a very reliable escrow service that I have used myself and found it to be an excellent service, you can buy from anyone with no risk of being taken or ripped off. For more information visit their web site at http://www.tradesafe.com.

    Both parties, the buyer and seller must agree to complete the transaction using the service, so if the seller refuses to do it, you know that chances are you will be taken.

    It's a shame to see this kind of things happening here, so help yourself and avoid the hassle of being robbed.


    From Hasselblad Mailing List:
    Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999
    From: Austin Franklin [email protected]
    Subject: RE: advice on mail order

    Shop with your head, not your wallet. :-)

    [Austin] Exactly, but what that means to me, is use a credit card, and if any problems occur, dispute the charges. If there is a problem with the merchandise (wrong item, non-working etc.) return it. Also, DON'T let them claim they have to send it somewhere for repair. DEMAND a new replacement item to be send immediately after they receive your old one. You didn't pay for a repaired item, but for a new item. If they don't oblige, dispute the charges. ALWAYS get proof of return...ALWAYS... All you have to do is prove you sent it, not that they received it.

    Once the merchandise is returned, and you have proof of it, the credit card company is legally obligated to refund your money.

    I also FAX a P.O. with the exact order information on it, to someone, with the credit card information on it. I also state I will not take a repair in the first N days after receipt, but replacement only and I state the warranty terms. Additionally, I specify the shipping method, charges (so there are no hidden charges), and delivery terms (must ship today or order is considered void) etc. Works great, and the credit card companies HONOR this (at least for me they have when a vendor charged me more than the price listed on the PO).

    Geeze, for $800 I'd put up with a little headache ;-)


    From: phil taylor [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: 10 things to remember when ordering photographic equipment by mail
    Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998

    > Phil-----For a more immediate subject:  tell me how to buy something from
    > someone over the net------going on here.
    

    OK. Here goes. I have a true story about number one and two. I once sent a Mamiya 645 Pro and some lenses ($3000 US) to someone in Washington State COD and UPS did not pick up his money order or check. The person was honest and sent the money to me. This happened one other time with a smaller package, and the person who received the item also sent me a check.

    1. Most people on the rec.photo.marketplace are honest.
    2. UPS sucks when it comes to COD and picking up your money from the person they deliver the item to.
    3. Always use COD. (not UPS)
    4. Know what you want and don't be afraid to ask questions.
    5. Get a working phone Voice # from the person you are dealing with (both sides) Sometimes you just don't want to wait for e-mail responses.
    6. Get Tracking numbers on the items and make sure that the sending parties give you the tracking number of the item they sent. (Email when sent and Email when received (To the Party not the Newsgroup)
    7. Deal in Money orders only on COD's Make sure you know exactly how much you need before you get one.
    8. Give and Get at least a 7 day return privilege.
    9. Use Shutterbug's rating system.
    10. Make sure that someone is there to accept delivery.

    .....

    From: phil taylor [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: 10 things to remember when ordering photographic equipment by mail
    Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998

    Just some helpful hints when you pick up that phone this holiday season to get that special someone (YOU) that special photographic necessary.

    1. Know the equipment you have before you get more.

    2. Name brand is ALWAYS better than a third party.

    3. Never believe that a cheaper model is better than a more expensive one.

    4. Always ask if the item you want is in stock.

    5. Never buy a piece of photographic equipment with the idea that you are going to replace it with what you really want later.

    6. You can always take pictures with an oatmeal box and a pinhole if have to.

    7. You should always know more about what you want than the person trying to sell something to you.

    8. Pay with a credit card if you can.

    9. You will always get screwed on shipping and handling.

    10. You do not really need anything as fast as they can send it to you for an additional 20 bucks.

    Merry Christmas (OOPS, NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT) Er Happy Holidays???

    Phil


    Date: 15 Jul 1998
    From: USA1955 [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: COD /FED EX FRAUD-Please read!

    The one time that I used COD from the Post Office was a $100 transaction.

    The carrier handed the shipment to the recipient and didn't collect the Money.

    I was lucky the recipient was honest enough to send the money order to me.

    My follow up to the Post Office yielded ZERO results.

    Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998
    From: David Foy [email protected]
    Subject: eBay (was RE: low cost 6x6 projectors Re: [Rollei] Older cameras vs. newer ones)

    eBay is an Internet auction. I started trading gear on eBay about two years ago. Every day there would be between 350 and 500 photo items to bid on. Last time I looked (5 seconds ago) there were 4305. The URL is:

    http://listings.ebay.com/aw/listings/list/category625/index.html

    I've traded over $25,000 on eBay and had only two problems that couldn't be resolved. One was a seller who defrauded a bunch of us on computer equipment; the other, a buyer who stiffed me on a COD delivery. I mention that because there are people who are afraid to deal at a distance via an auction. eBay has a "feedback" section where you can check on a seller's reputation.


    From: "BOB" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: WARNING COUNTERFEIT MO's
    Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998

    Watch what your selling. There are some people that will give your ups man A phony mo or cashiers check for cash {yes they will accept it even if you specify cash only}

    You'll never see your camera again and never see the money either. The only way to be sure is to have them send you a Postal mo first then send the camera to them insured.

    Postal MO's fall under the treasury and it is a fed offence to copy one. Not so with a bank check or a mo.

    Bob


    More Bad Money Orders - SELLER ALERT!!
    From: Robert Koller [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: BEWARE! Forged Money Orders!
    Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998

    Sellers Beware! There is an individual in the Atlanta area purchaseing photo equipment using forged Global Express Money Orders!! I got clipped for almost $800. If you receive payment via this or any other money order call the issuer FIRST!!! Most have an 800 number available from the 800 directory assistance, (800-555-1212). If anyone has been taken I would appreciate a private response to compare notes.

    Bob


    From: Luc Novovitch [email protected]
    Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: WARNING COUNTERFEIT MO's

    > Postal MO's fall under the treasury and it is a fed offence
    > to copy one.  Not so with a bank check or a mo.
    > Bob
    
    The fact that the business transaction was done over the internet, it is
    considered as a wire transaction, and will become a federal offense if
    something illegal happens, money order or not. And if you shipped UPS or
    FedEx to an other state that will also qualify as a federal offense. In
    this case the Postmaster General would be involved, as he oversees
    interstate transactions even by private carriers.
    
    

    --
    Luc Novovitch
    mailto:[email protected]


    From: "BOB" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: WARNING COUNTERFEIT MO's
    Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:33:14 GMT

    I hear what your saying but in practice your counterfeit mo is not very high in the fed list of things to do. My brother was told to hire an attorney by the attorney Gen. office. They said it is an offence but not counterfeiting. As counterfeiting is on treasury issued notes.

    You also have to prove that the money transferred on the internet such as a wire transfer. Call ups or Fed Ex sometime. I have and they tell me it's my responsibility to make sure I'm dealing with a honest person. I know that there are laws but how much money and time are you willing to spend to try and catch someone who had you send a camera to a deserted building and then stood there waiting for ups gave them a mo and took your stuff. That is how it happened to my bro. We went to the address and there was a empty warehouse there. The ups man said someone identified himself and had the mo properly made out. He took it and away went the camera.

    Bob


    About U.S. Postal Money Orders

    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected] (Philip Hiscock)
    [2] Re: How do I do International? - POSTAL MONEY ORDER ONLY!
    Date: Fri Sep 04 07:08:22 CDT 1998

    Residents of the United States should be aware that (unlike many other countries with what are usually thought to be reciprocal postal relations, like Canada and the United Kingdom) the US post office has _two_ kinds of postal money order. The usual one, and the default in most offices, is a domestic money order

    -- it cannot be cashed outside the USA, at least not without hassle and cost to the recipient. The other is a bona fide

    _International_ Postal Money Order. If you are sending money out of the United States of America (whether in US funds or otherwise), the US International Postal Money Order is the way to do it, especially to Canada and the UK.

    (It's probably not the same for other countries.)

    Philip Hiscock (in Canada)


    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: Henry [email protected]
    [1] Re: FAKE MONEY ORDERS
    Date: Sat Feb 13 06:58:14 CST 1999

    Doug Olsen wrote:

    > Yes it is unless its a US Postal Money Order.  Many retailers, particularly
    > grocery stores, issue money orders to customers as a service.  These are
    > easy to fake so insist on US Postal money orders or don't ship until the
    > payment clears, ten days usually and call your bank to be sure.
    >
    > Michael wrote
    > >If I receive payment from someone in the form of a money order, do I
    > >need to deposit it first, or is it safe to go ahead and send what
    > >he/she's paying for?  Is it possible to pay someone with a fake money
    > >order?  Thanks.
    > >
    > >Michael
    

    NOT a good idea. Do you know what happens if a US Postal Money Order is lost, stolen or for some reason the other person does not get it?

    You must wait 60 days before you can make a claim and THEN you have to pay a fee to the US Post Office in order to make that claim. And that's only if no one finds the Money Order and cashes it.

    Henry


    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected]
    [1] Re: FAKE MONEY ORDERS
    Date: Sat Feb 13 02:08:53 CST 1999

    Only a US Postal Money Order is absolutely safe, but bank m.o.s are a close second.

    "Funny" m.o.s like Western Union, Traveler's Express etc. can be STOPPED, so are no more secure form of payment than a personal check - after all, they're commonly used for bill paying by the lowest life forms who cannot even qualify for a checking account.

    When in doubt, read the fine print on the back - look for words like "issuer can stop payment". If so, treat them like checks and allow time to clear. You can always call the 800 number on the m.o. to confirm clearance.

    And, yes it is possible to receive a "fake" m.o. - one run off on a color copier. But since real m.os have watermarks and Postal m.o.s have distinctive texture and checkwriter imprints, fakes should be easy to spot.

    Michael wrote:

    > If I receive payment from someone in the form of a money order, do I
    > need to deposit it first, or is it safe to go ahead and send what
    > he/she's paying for?  Is it possible to pay someone with a fake money
    > order?  Thanks.
    >
    > Michael  
    


    From: [email protected] (Jerry Cullingford)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: What happens to returns?
    Date: 16 Jul 1998

    Which makes me wonder - what happens to returns in the US? Are they discounted, sent elsewhere, or just put back in stock so that what's sold as a "new" item could potentially either be used, or (worst case) damaged?

    UK stores don't normally have as liberal a return policy as US ones seem to, so it's not a major issue over here - but I get the impression that it's not uncommon for US stores to allow people to return stuff after using it for a week or two, which would suggest that there's likely to be a reasonable quantity of returned stuff around that I wouldn't consider "new" - so what happens to it?

    --
    _|_ Jerry Cullingford [email protected] (Work)
    / | Fujifilm Electronic Imaging [email protected] (Home)
    \_|_ Hemel Hempstead, UK PGP key at www.selune.demon.co.uk
    \__/ (Speaking only for myself and not the company unless otherwise stated)


    From: [email protected] (Bob Beaver)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Re: What happens to returns?
    Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998

    Depends on the store. Some sells them at a discount. Some put a sticker on them to warn the customer that it has been returned but that it has been inspected and okayed, then sells them at the same price as one that has never been opened. Some stores return the merchandise to the manufacturer or distributor for credit. I guess some may just put the merchandise back on the shelf, although it would be against the law to sell them as new in some states.


    From: [email protected] (Fred B.)
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
    Subject: Re: What happens to returns?
    Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998

    Defectives:

    1) Put back in stock and sold as new.
    2)Marked as "AS IS" and sold.
    3)Repaired and sold as new.
    4)Repaired, labelled as repaired, and sold labelled as such.
    4)Repaired by shop or manufacturer and marked "refurbished" and sold cheaper.

    Not defective, just a return:

    1) Sold as new at full price.
    2) Sold as new at discounted price.
    3)Labelled customer return, and discounted.

    -----------------------------------
    Fred B.


    rec.photo.marketplace
    From: [email protected]
    [1] Re: Bad dealer experience. Your advice?
    Date: Mon Jul 20 22:07:56 CDT 1998

    Don't CALL Visa, put it in writing, and be sure to do it within the first 60 days of the purchase. Explain the situation in detail, and provide copies of the invoice, and ask that the charge be removed from your statement. Explain that you'll return the merchandise to the seller as soon as the charge is removed from your account, and the seller arranges for shipping at their expense. In the meantime, DO NOT PAY that amount on your credit card bill. You're entitled to withhold payment on disputed amounts, and Visa can't charge you interest on the disputed amount.

    DO NOT send a copy to the retailer, that just gives them warning and more time to contest your claim. I've never had a credit card company deny my claim, in any situation. Once you've received confirmation from your credit card company, THEN send a polite letter to the retailer asking them to arrange pick up of the equipment.

    NOTE: Your legal protections under US law apply ONLY if you contest the charge in writing within 60 days. You have no legal protections if you only call. (All this assumes you live in the US--I don't know what protections exist in other countries).

    HTH,

    Bob


    Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998
    From: Peter Klosky [email protected]
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: Independent Camera Buyer Wanted

            > all these used camera dealers can afford those extensive
            > inventories. I know the buy cheap - cheap - cheap! But from whom
            > do they buy it?
    

    At the northwest photo swap meets there are two vendors who always have beautiful equipment.

    I asked the lady where they get their equipment and she said "from shows or from people who bring stuff to us; we're very picky about what we buy". My guess is that the equipment they get from shows has to be bought before the doors open ...

    I think you are right, but let me add to your equation. Paying a "table fee" will give you several advantages. You can pal around and shop with other dealers before the show opens. When the show opens, you can put a sign out that you are buying; people will stop by your table. You can also start selling, too. After a while, you will start to get recognized at the show, and dealers will bring you stuff, call you as will other people that come to the show.

    Another way to get into the show early ( I shouldn't be telling one of my best tricks ) is to arrive outside the show early. Then arrange with any dealer at the load-in to help carry stuff into the show. They are normally allowed a helper and need help. Once you help in with a load or two, you get a free admission and dealer's badge. Dress decent, smile, show off your business card, or even arrange in advance with a dealer you know.

    If you get highly into buying and selling, it is a good idea to collect sales tax. The same goes for selling photos of weddings. One fellow here in Virginia felt the tax code didn't apply to him, and owed $11K.

    Just btw, he is now divorced. I got angry when that auditor came knocking, but after getting my papers together, we agreed I had properly collected the tax due.

    Peter


    From: Charles F Seyferlich [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: huge EBAY prices ...
    Date: 19 Dec 1998

    Henry wrote:

    > Cary F. Yelin wrote:
    > >
    > > It is important for would-be bidders to recognize that shills are a  part of the
    > > game at e-bay.  I have seen items bid up well beyond their worth, supposedly sold,
    > > and then offered again--conclusive evidence, I would think, that not all the bids
    > > are for real.  Certainly, there cannot be that many bid winners who reneg on their
    > > purchases.  Therefore, be wary.  Obviously, many people get caught up in the frenzy
    > > of the auction, and that is too bad, but it also happens at house  auctions,
    > > Sothebys, etc.
    > >
    > > Eosman wrote:
    > >ed romney [email protected]
    > > > writes:
    > > >
    > > > >The best way photographers can protect  themselves against price  gouging
    > > > >on EBAY...
    > > >
    > > > Prices on ebay are set by the bidder.  If a person has been price  gouged on
    > > > ebay then they gouged themselves.  The seller has little control  over the price
    > > > ( shill bidding conspiracies aside ).
    > > >
    > > > In a nutshell, the buyer has the ultimate responsibility for  establishing the
    > > > value of an item.
    >
    > If you beleive that "shills" on EBAY, how do explain the fact that you
    > can view a list of bidders and the amount bid shown after the auction is
    > over?
    

    I have seen at least on example of a "shill" on ebay (not on a photo item).

    I wondered at the way bidding was going on a item (it was high) so I looked at email addresses of seller and bidders. The seller and three bidders all had 0 (zero) feed back and all were AOL. All started on eBay the same day. All of this made me a little suspicious so I looked the four names up on AOL - two had no profile, but the other two were the same person (one was the seller and one was a bidder). I looked at a second auction that the same seller was running and one of the bidders from first auction was also a bidder (not the one with same AOL profile).

    I emailed eBay with my findings.

    So -- it is possible for a shill to operate on eBay. This AOL guy made it a little too open. I suspect a sneakier soul would use different ISP's, including one at school or work.

    Ebay rules allow the seller to make one bid on his own sale (but not if it is a reserve sale). I have never done this, but it is allowed.


    Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998
    From: [email protected]
    To: Robert Monaghan [email protected]
    Subject: Re: COD /FED EX FRAUD-Please read!

    Do not give up on something like this. I filed with the postal inspector many years back about not getting my goods. Nothing happened for several years until the dude died. The postal service attached his estate and all of a sudden in the mail, I had a check for several hundred dollars I had forgotten about.

    Dick Werner


    From: "skgrimes" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: huge EBAY prices ...
    Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998

    Watch out for: `1. Competing bidders using free E-mail addresses. (Not necessarily bad, but enough to alert)

    2. Being contacted by the seller after an auction in which the reserve price wasn't/t met but offering to negotiate a sale anyway.

    3.. Being contacted by a seller saying: "The high bidder reneged, do you want the item at your high bid?" (Especially if the winning bid was from a free E-mail address)

    I would not buy from case #3 under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE and no matter how badly I wanted the item.

    In all these cases there is no obligation from the bidder to buy anything and he can simply click away from any of these situations as simply as hanging up on unsolicited phone calls. SKG

    --- S.K. Grimes -- Feinmechanik ----

    --Machine work for photographers
    --Lenses fitted to shutters, iris scales engraved
    http://www.skgrimes.com


    From: "skgrimes" [email protected]
    Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
    Subject: Re: huge EBAY prices ...
    Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998

    I suppose it may be OK and that may be a bit of an overcaution: Placing an artificially high reserve on an item is also a trick to avoid paying the e-bay commission since you can say it didn't sell. *If *(and that's a big if) that's the case then you are already dealing with someone whose ethics may not be on the up and up. After all, if he was willing to sell for a lower price he should have put a lower reserve. It also puts the seller in a negotiating position with the bidder (an eBay is a lot about avoiding negotiation and haggling) with the proposition of "My reserve was 100.00 (which you have to just believe) and you bid 50 how about we split the difference" or some such.


    --- S.K. Grimes -- Feinmechanik ----

    --Machine work for photographers
    --Lenses fitted to shutters, iris scales engraved
    http://www.skgrimes.com



    From: [email protected] (Carl Christensen) Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.marketplace Subject: PayPal Chargeback to Seller after 2 1/2 months? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 Here's an odd case (to me): I sold an Olympus C700 digital camera, like new condition on Ebay on 12/6/01, total $460, buyer received on 12/10/01 (I have the tracking # thank god, see later). I didn't hear back from the buyer for a week so I assumed everything was OK. But 7 days later the buyer complained that the 8MB Smartmedia card included wasn't formatting all the way or enabling her to use all the memory. It sounded kind of fishy that she could use 6MB out of 8MB or whatever, and I assumed that perhaps it was condensation from shipping. Of course it had been a week since she accepted shipping so it's not like I could file a claim for the insurance with USPS. So giving her the benefit of the doubt I refunded $50 via paypal which I figured would pay for a 128MB smartmedia card or at least a cleaning of the contacts. My guess was that the woman's husband was mad about her buying the camera so she made up this lame excuse, but I took her word for it and sent her back $50. So lo-and-behold, it's like 2.5 months later and I get a notice from paypal that she (actually her husband) has initiated a chargeback for the entire amount (not even less the $50 I had given her as a "trouble refund"). And of course they give only 72 hours or they consider the case closed in favor of the buyer (gee, luckily I am back from my week vacation in LA). Now I have been hearing bad horror stories about paypal about how the seller has nada protection so I am assuming that even though I provided the tracking # and my side of the story I am soon to be out both the camera, the $50 refund, plus the full $460 price from my account! So assuming that paypal, as they seem to do so often, will side with the buyer (e.g. protecting the VISA card owner) even in the face of other evidence (e.g. I shipped to the seller 2.5 months ago to their confirmed address); what other options are there?


    From: Paul Rubin [email protected] Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.marketplace Subject: Re: PayPal Chargeback to Seller after 2 1/2 months? Date: 19 Feb 2002 [email protected] (Carl Christensen) writes: > So assuming that paypal, as they seem to do so often, will side with > the buyer (e.g. protecting the VISA card owner) even in the face of > other evidence (e.g. I shipped to the seller 2.5 months ago to > their confirmed address); what other options are there? Did the buyer at least send back the camera? You might look at the website www.paypalsucks.com for more horror stories, btw.


    From: [email protected] (NHDoc) Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace Date: 20 Feb 2002 Subject: Re: PayPal Chargeback to Seller after 2 1/2 months? ... >Someone on the ebay board said I should file it as mail fraud since he took >the camera 10 weeks ago and now is trying to reverse charges (and from the >paypal horror story boards it looks like the "seller is always screwed"). I've had a few problems with paypal. One of them was trying to contact them directly by phone. I finally found their number and will publish it here...1-800-836-1859. At the time I was looking I could not find it on their site and they used to have it printed on the credit card statements next to the transaction so I found some old statements and copied it down. I suggest anyone with an account with them copy it down now as it will come in handy sooner or later. As for the particulars of this problem, I would request the buyer's telepone number from ebay (user information request) call them directly and confront them calmly about the chargeback. Perhaps cool heads can resolve it one way or another. If that fails, then I would call the buyer's local small claims court and file a case to collect the payment or get the camera back. Usually just the act of being served with papers from court gets people moving. Just my two cents.


    From: John G. Mankos [email protected] Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.marketplace Subject: Re: PayPal Chargeback to Seller after 2 1/2 months? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 ... If you made sure to ship to an address the buyer had confirmed through paypal, you should be protected under their Seller Protection Plan. I make sure when I ship, it's only to the Address paypal specifies that is confirmed. When I sell somthing and I get a non confirmed address...i don't accept the payment. What's the guys reason for the chargeback? If you have tracking info, you have proof that the goods were delivered. Did you specify in the auction your return policy, or that returns would not be accepted? I'd explain to Paypal, or the credit card company doing the chargeback that you sold them merchandise, they knew the camera condition in advance of sending payment, and that it was not a sale on a trial basis to see if they liked it or not. If what you state above is true...seems like an open and shut case in your favor. Whenever I tried to to a chargeback on my CC for something...my bank was a pain in the ass...making sure I exhausted all proper channels(like getting the company to refund the money) before attempting the chargeback. They gotta have a legit reason to do so. BTW...I would have offered to send her another smartmedia card. You can get a 128 mb card for $50. 8 mb cards are a dime a dozen. Some people got nerve...I know how that goes. I know if someone did that to me....I'd be out another $199 for a plane ticket.... -- John G. Mankos


    From: Mac McDougald [email protected] Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.marketplace Subject: Re: PayPal Chargeback to Seller after 2 1/2 months? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 ... > If you made sure to ship to an address the buyer had confirmed through > paypal, you should be protected under their Seller Protection Plan. Common misconception. That only protects you from chargebacks where buyer claims he didn't receive it (and requires on-line tracking also, and only good for US transactions). It does NOT "protect" you when buyer claims goods were not in condition stated by seller. These are handled on a case by case scenario and can drag out. In some cases, PayPal will even ask for the item even help decide. -- Mac McDougald Doogle Digital - www.doogle.com


    From rollei mailing list: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 From: Marc James Small [email protected] Subject: [Rollei] Postal Insurance Claims Austin Franklin wrote: >> He went to the PO and said he was choosing to have the lens >> repaired. They >> said OK, bring us the receipt and we will reimburse you. He produced a >> receipt a few days later and they paid him. All of this took >> place without >> my knowledge. > >That makes no sense. Help me understand how that worked. How did the PO >know it was insured in the first place, and don't say the sticker on the >box...he could have put that on him self... Also, how did they know how >much it was insured for? I could have insured a $1,000 item for $200...and >the only way to prove insurance coverage is the original receipt! Austin is correct on this. I have twice had the PO muck up insured items I have sent and, on both occasions, I have had to provide the recipient with a copy of the insurance receipt and a Postal form of some type so that he could claim. Marc [email protected]


    From hasselblad mailing list: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 From: Austin Franklin [email protected] Subject: RE: [HUG] Where to buy Hasselblad? > However it > was a dealer with no feedback, that had recently > changed his name, located in Europe, demanding a pure > cash transaction (no PayPal, credit cards, etc.). I > may have missed out on a bargain, but in a > circumstance like that you have no recourse other than > to complain to eBay if the equipment doesn't show up > or isn't as described. Actually, complaining to eBay will get you nowhere, if you paid cash for it. I have a circumstance with a seller, "to-ni", who advertised a camera as in perfect condition, and it was absolutely a piece of junk. I paid cash (as the seller had great feedback, and it avoids the outrageous bank fees that are changed for wire transfers), and the seller acknowledges receipt of payment, but eBay won't allow one of their insurance claims, because they EXCLUDE cash transactions from their insurance. I could see if the seller disputed having received the money...but when the seller doesn't dispute that, then I am a bit miffed that eBay won't honor the insurance. Austin