Which came first and which was the improved model?

I have two variants of model 2 - one with inside instructions in English, one in Japanese. Both are printed with black ink on a gold label background, similar to instructions in earlier inserts for Bronica Deluxe - guessing these are older.

The model 1 inserts I have all have silver printing in English on black labels looking more modern and implying to me that the one roller version was the later one and represented some kind of improvement.

I prefer the One Roller model and it fits S-2A, C and S-2 with 12/24 back and curtain covering.

I think this model rolls the film more smoothly on My cameras.

Does this have anything to do with film flatness....... maybe?

Bronica EC Film Insert

Another quirk - the Helical focusing mount which comes with the Bronica S-2, C, S-2A, EC and EC-TL also comes in several variations. One on the C has focus scales for 4 lenses most of the others only one. And, some of the working parts are not interchangeable from variation to variation. Why..??

Does anyone have any answers to the above with real information........?

Or if not real information, your own guesswork is a good substitute.

I would also appreciate anyone  owning Bronica S-2, C and S-2A cameras writing in and telling us which kind of inserts they have - Model 1 or Model 2 and what kind of printing.

Thanks for the effort.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999
From: "S. Sherman" [email protected]
Subject: [BRONICA] Followup- Bronica S-2A Different Inserts

to: Bronica list-

In followup to my post about inserts with one or two top rollers which fit the Bronica S-2A type cameras-

The inserts with the one only top roller seems to have its top and bottom roller coated with a stick free surface like Teflon.

The inserts with the two rollers on top seems to have the roller surfaces that are anodized.

I interchanged a one roller insert into an S-2A back and it wound more smoothly.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Bronica S-2A Has TWO Different Inserts

Sam,

I have an S2A with 2 120(only) backs.

They both have the double roller assemblies and both have a gold label with black lettering in English..

Ser# CM 61788 and CM 43928.

The 43928 back came with the camera the other one I bought later.

I was of the impression that all S2A backs were 120/220 selectable.

I have come to the conclusion I was mistaken. I think both of mine are 120 only..

Kevin

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999
From: "Michael D. Wilson" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Bronica S-2A Has TWO Different Inserts

Hello Sam and fellow list mates.

The insert, for my S2A, has one roller at the top and the top roller is smaller in diameter than the one at the bottom. On the inside of the insert, above the bottom roller, is a gold decal with a red border, which has the writing, black lettering, gold background, in english,

"Close the back cover after setting film and matching with start mark".

This is the insert which came with my camera, purchased used. It has all stainless gears on the side so I believe it to be the S2A version. Or does this only apply to gearing inside the body?

The helical focusing mount on my camera has 3 scales; one for 75, 80 and 100mm.

Mike Wilson
Pinson, Alabama

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999
From: "S. Sherman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Bronica S-2A Has TWO Different Inserts

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 10-3-99

to: Bronica List-

Mike,

Thanks for writing with the information.

Your insert with gold label and one roller is still another slightly different type as is the focusing helical mount with three footage scales as compared to mounts I have with one or four footage scales.

It goes to prove that variations in the same models of Bronica equipment are all over the place.

I wonder if anybody knows why this is?

List members please answer with your own additional research and opinions on Bronica inserts and focusing mounts for S-2A, S-2 and C.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999
From: "S. Sherman" [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Bronica S/S2 inserts

from: [email protected] (Sam Sherman) 10-21-99

to: Bronica List

Kevin,

I did have an E back which is 4.5x6 for Bronica S-2 and S-2A.

The insert was the same as regular 12/24 backs for these cameras.

However,

If you read my previous post on these inserts there are two models and I believe the later, improved model has a single, not double, upper roller.

- Sam Sherman

....

From Bronica Mailing List:
 Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:44:17 -0000
   From: "kryten_camille" 
Subject: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Film inserts and film flatness

Now that I have a lens which is very focus critical I have adjusted
the focussing screen on my S2a within a thin shim of its life.  Now
there is the film flatness issue to solve, to get the consistency
needed.

I think I have done my home work reading all that I can find on the
topic....

- all my inserts are the same  "A" type (They have an "A" on the side)
- took the dark slide out with film loaded  and checked for play
between the film and pressure plate by watching for film deforming
when pressed with a tooth pick. Wound the film and retested.
-> inconsistent results which is not good.  I did notice that I could
greatly improve the results by adding a very small amount of drag to
the supply side roll.

Single roller inserts are preferred by some.  Is this because they add
a little bit more resistance and therefor better results?

Does the increase on rolling resistance make up for the natural
resistance lost because of slightly fatigued pressure plate springs?

Currently in my test rig I am covering the ends of my supply film roll
with a layer of masking tape and one side of the insert to get a tape
to tape friction  to add the resistance needed for consistency.  This
"seems" to work and adds just enough friction to keep the supply side
reel from acting like a toilet paper roll interacting with a 3 year
old.

Ideas?  Has anyone else worked on this issue and gotten results that I
may have missed.

Thanks
Stephen


PS Lens Conversion... So as not to scare anyone from trying a lens
conversion... the 6 hours for the lens conversion started at the point
of  opening the lens and focussing mount for the first time (no plan
yet), not just the machining and fabricating time.



From bronica mailing list:
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 
From: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Subject: RE: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Stephen,

I have covered most of this ground in my posts and articles on Bob Monaghan's
Bronica Mega site- (see the new URL for this here)

http://medfmt.8k.com/bronica.html


Re- Bronica S2A film flatness -

Bronica improved their inserts for this camera resulting in better film
flatness for models S2, S2A, C.

The later, improved inserts have only one large roller at the top (not 2 as
in the earlier ones) and the latest ones have a dull grey teflon coating on
the one roller. Some are marked "A" on the side - some are not.

Be sure you are snapping the insert in properly into the back with BOTH sides
locking in sharply.

I would NOT advise putting drag on the film as this can hurt the camera wind
gears.

If you are not getting a flat film plane after all of this - my advice is the
back is bad and get another (or try another if you have one) back.

- Sam Sherman



From bronica mailing list:
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 
From: "kryten_camille" [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Sam and others,

When I said I did my homework I really did do my reading homework,
honest ;-)

I also know that you have to start with the easy fixes... I've done it
all (except bought upgraded inserts).

All of my backs and inserts are duel roller "A"s in excellent
condition.  They have been fine for all other lenses until the 180
f2.8.  Now I have a problem, they are not quite fine enough just like
my focusing screen adjustment used to be good enough.  The inserts I
have should be able to work as well as any others with an engineering
change or two.  Right?


I guess what I was looking for is someone like me who has worked on
the possible problems and the engineering changes for these inserts
already.  If no one has done work on this problem already, is there
anyone out there who is interested besides me?

By what you have reiterated in your message I am inclined to believe
that my supposition that slightly more drag needs to be put on the
supply side of the insert/back is correct.  This is born out by the
later "superior" inserts having no roller on the bottom.  This is
likely the "factory" engineering change?  What I would like to work on
is an engineering change we can all make to our not so great inserts
to bring them up to scratch so we can confidently use lenses that need
finer accuracy.

Currently I believe that not enough drag on the feed side to maintain
the film flatness seems to be the major problem with the older
inserts.  The drag I added and am experimenting with is very very
small, probably less than the friction added by having no bottom
roller.   The problem/hart part with the "future" fix is that it will
have to be consistent through many rolls of film.  Is there a picture
anywhere of a single roller insert?  Maybe all that is needed is to
lock the bottom roller(unlikely)?

I am open to alternative reasons for degraded performance and ways to
improve performance, anyone have any other ideas?  Did these
"inferior" inserts always have this performance or is it a
wear/fatigue problem?

Thanks
Stephen


From bronica mailing list:
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 
From: "dgoldfar" [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Stephen,

Before re-engineering the back, have you compared results with 220
film vs. 120 film?  I haven't tried this, but some say that 220 film
is flatter in most cameras that can use it due to the absence of the
paper backing.  I believe that Zeiss prefers to test its medium
format lenses with 220 film for this reason.  Of course this would
limit the films available to you, but if the need for extreme flatness
is an occasional one, it might be a good option.

David Goldfarb


From bronica mailing list:
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 
From: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Subject: RE: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Stephen,

What is unclear to me is the type of film inserts you are using.

If you have inserts with the TWO top rollers instead of the ONE
top roller, it is odd they they are stamped "A" on the side.

I spent a great deal of time with my studies of film flatness in
old Bronica cameras and discovered that the One top roller inserts
were later improvements and gave a flatter film plane.

This is over a series of Bronica S2A, S2 and C cameras, different backs and
inserts etc.

I am convinced that there is a difference and improvement with the One
roller insert. I studied this when I first adapted a 180MM f2.8 Carl Zeiss
Jena Sonnar (pre-set) to Bronica S2A etc.

I get extremely flat film planes on all of the above equipment and am able to
get sharp results with the 180MM Sonnar wide open at f2.8.

If you wish to use the older Two roller inserts and try to make them work
better, that is your call.

I am convinced that more drag on film going through a medium format camera
has only marginal effect on film flatness, with mamy other factors being
more important.

I did a study of medium format cameras at a recent Photo Plus Expo in
New York and there is a writeup of this on Bob Monaghan's site. I was
amazed that Hasselblad added heavy spring tension (drag) to some of their
newer backs, when they never had that before.

Reverse curl backs (Bronica, Hasselblad), 120 film with paper backing
and 120 film stock of varying thicknesses impact dramatically on this
subject.

Rolleiflex SLRs and Pentax 67 with straight across film paths
by nature have flatter films planes. Then we get to cameras with installed
glass plates in the apertures (upgraded Pentacon 6 models) and the 220 vacuum
back in the Contax 645 as having very flat film planes.

Still, for low cost solutions to this problem, I am amazed at the extremely
flat film planes I have gotten with the Bronica S2A one roller inserts
(all of them in varying samples - vs. two roller inserts in varying samples)
and the new NT backs for Kiev 88CM etc.

The Bronica S2A succeeds for many reasons, one of which is a smooth winding
no-drag film system which allows the camera to wind with film virtually as
smoothly with it as without it. Many other cameras are harder to wind with
film due to the drag on the film - contributing to earlier breakdown of the
wind system.

- Sam Sherman



From bronica mailing list:
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 
From: Wayne Openlander [email protected]
Subject: RE: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Dear Bronica S2 fans.

I bought my first Bronica about 40 years ago and have been using them ever
since. I like to have 16 x 20 enlargements made of my favorite negatives. I
have never had a problem with misplaced plane of focus at any time with any
body or lens combination. All my bodies and lenses focus just fine at
infinity. Never could find any rotting foam related to the ground glass
either.

Well, after these posts, I had to go through my collection of backs and
look at the inserts. I found two inserts with one small top roller marked
with the A on the side, one insert with one small roller and no A and two
inserts with two small rollers and no A.

Looking a little further I see that all the inserts have a teeter-totter
spring with chromed rollers that ride on the film rolls.  The teeter-totter
keeps the tension even as the film is wound from one roll to the other.. I
also see that there is a spring loaded platform behind the film and that
the the plane of the platform is slightly in front of the lead-edge plane
of the rollers. I also see that there are two thin spring loaded rubber
rollers, one on each side of the insert, that operate to hold the film
against a complementary set of landings that are inside the back.
Altogether I see six such landings inside the back, one at each corner and
two opposite the rubber rollers..

It appears that this is a carefully designed system that both insures
flatness flatness and sets the front of  the film against a reference plane
that is inside the camera and not part of the insert system.

I suggest that setting the film against such a fixed internal reference
plane would compensate for any differences in film thickness. This tells
why the back works so well for both 120 and 220 film.


My best regards,


Wayne Openlander


[Ed. note: on the issue of fast lenses and critical focus, see notes]
From Bronica Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 
From: "kryten_camille" [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Wayne,

I have pretty much agreed totally with what you say until I adapted a
180mm f2.8 lens to my S2As.  This lens has a depth if field of about 1
inch at 6 feet when wide open.

Previously using the Nikkor 75mm I checked my camera viewfinder focus
with a piece of ground glass in the film plain and found the camera
focus to be accurate after I did the "foam fix".  When I checked the
viewfinder focus using the 180mm lens I discovered that the focus was
off and had to be adjusted with very thin shims.

Next I discovered that the film plane (obviously) was just as
sensitive.  My pictures varied inconsistantly to my viewfinder in
focus.  Having already read Sam Sherman's film flatness writing I knew
what to check.  When I took the back off my camera and then removed
the dark slide I discovered that if I pushed the film against the
presure plate the film deformed showing that it was not tight against
the presure plate.  Even worse the distance seemed inconsistant from
frame to frame!

All this has lead me to try to discover the best method to
consistantly keep the film flat against the preasure plate as possible
and this in turn has lead to this email thread.

Thanks
Stephen



From bronica mailing list:
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 
From: Wayne Openlander [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Dear Stephan!

Well, I'm not questioning your observations. That combination of lens
length and aperature does place some stress on the focussing accuracy of
the camera and it would be nice to have complete confidence in the system.
The most valuable photographs are those taken of things that can never be
restaged or repeated. Any craftsman would want the best possible recording
of those events.

So, in the interest of science, I dug though my film cooler and found a
couple of outdated rolls of film I was willing to sacrifice.

I took one of my backs, an S2A back, and popped the lock on the dark slide.
Then I loaded it with a roll of TMY120 dated 02/1995. First thing, I notice
that there are two very small black rollers, one each at the top and bottom
of the opening in the back. Another fine detail to the film plane locating
system further confirming my thinking the the film plane is set by the
camera and not the by the insert.

Rolling out the film I can see that the curl in the film from sitting in my
film refrigerator for seven years prevents the film from laying perfectly
flat in the film plane. If I hold the film plane at an angle to a light I
can see waves in the reflection.

Luckily I have a very nice depth micrometer calibrated in 1/100 millimeters
and made by Shadrow Micrometers Ltd in Sheffield, England.

By placing the reference plane of the depth micrometer across the opening
in the back I can measure the variation in the film plane- I can tell that
the micrometer plunger has touched the film when the reflection pattern
from the film changes. I measure a variation of .04 mm +/- .01mm across the
film plane. This is on the order of .002 inches and not at all bad.

Let me make one more observation, I hope I have this right: .05mm is to
180mm as .02 inch is to 6 feet.

Please, I don't want my observation to be the gold standard of film
flatness here. I wouldn't have thought to do this if I hadn't been
following the thread. I have the calipers and other tools because I
sometimes have to make very precise things for my job. Finally this is one
back, one insert, and one roll of film. Just one man's measurements.

Sincerely yours,

Wayne Openlander


From Bronica Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 
From: "kryten_camille" [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Sam thank you for the added info...

Differentiating inserts without pictures or having seen anything else
later or earlier makes my recognition of which inserts I have dubious
at best.

The backs I have are all S2A backs with  "A" inserts.  The inserts all
have approx. 7/32" top roller and a larger roller approx.13/32" on the
bottom.  There are also 2 tensioning rollers that see saw on the film
rolls.  Instructions are English and in gold colour.  Gear side
markings are   A {New Line} ZENZA BRONICA   MADE IN JAPAN

I would predict that these must be the most common kind on inserts.

Do you know if these back/insert combinations ever worked in an
"excellent" fashion.

If the model I am using is nearly the best available except for teflon
coating then perhaps there are presure plate spring fatigue concerns
on the two I have been experimenting with?  They are not pristine.

Stephen


From bronica mailing list:
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 
From: "kryten_camille" [email protected]
Subject: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited

Wayne,

You are doing a lot better than I am... I can see that my ripples
without even measuring are waves compared to yours!

Stephen


From bronica mailing list:
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 
From: "kryten_camille" [email protected]
Subject: back/insert problem solved... I hope

Last night I took a very close look at the problem (again) and I have
reduced the ripples in the film plain significantly.

I again went over my 2 empty inserts with a fine tooth comb and found
nothing wrong.  I took one of my other "better" loaded back/inserts,
removed the film and put a "problem" insert into the "better" back.
The ripples were noticably reduced!  On closer inspection the problem
seems to be sticky dry rollers.  Not on the insert, but in the back!!
 Interestingly the two "problem" insert/backs I was originally working
with had come from the same source and had the same problem...probably
the same time/milage.

Lubricating these tiny rollers will be interesting as they touch the
film surface.  I am actually surprised that they were not scratching
the film surface.


- while working through this I also observed something that might also
have an effect on an a "well working" system too.  When advancing film
if I did not move the film smoothly without stopping in mid-frame a
ripple resulted in the film where it had paused between the feed
rollers (back and insert rollers).

Finally, thanks Sam for your patience and I hope I have added
something new to "film flatness" on S2 backs.

Stephen


From bronica Mailing list:
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: S2a film inserts and film flattness revisited


Stephen,

The One top roller insert is the roller at the top of the pressure plate
when looking at it from the front.

The earlier models have two rollers there.

Your cleaning/oiling of the two rollers at the top and bottom of the
back/aperture is of course a must.

The newest. cleanest backs and inserts contribute to film flatness.

Good luck with your discovery and work.

- Sam Sherman


From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 04 Nov 2002
Subject: Re: Bronica S2A Film Winding Problem


Rich,

Loading insert problems with Bronica S2A cameras are quite common.
I should know I have done them too. Nowhere in any instructions
do they properly warn the user these problems are common - please note the
following-

With the back open and the inert loaded with the film starter marks
pointing to the dot in the insert-

Place the insert in the back using thumb pressure from both thumbs to first
push the left side of the insert in and hear a positive "click"
and then the right side (with the right thumb) and hear a positive "click".
If you do not get TWO clicks - remove the insert and wind the film very
slightly forward by turning the outside insert gear - now try to push the
insert back in with the two clicks. You may have to play around with this to
get it right. But you will easily get the hang of it.

If that does not fix it - send your camera and backs to Ken Ruth
(Photography on Bald Mountain) or Frank Marshman (Camera Wiz) -
both advertise in the back of Shutterbug.

Best,

Sam Sherman


From: Rich Shepard [email protected]
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Bronica S2A film inserts
Date: 19 Mar 2003 

For my Bronica S2A I have several backs (2 6x6 and 1 6x4.5) plus an extra
film insert. One of my 6x6 backs is letting the film slip, regardless of how
careful I am in loading the film and inserting the carrier into the back
itself.

I suspect the insert so I'll swap the one I've used for the spare. This
will tell me if the problem's with the insert or the back.

However, I also took out the insert from the 6x4.5 back and that one has
an uppercase "A" stamped on the side, above the Zenza Bronica name. Does
this letter mean that the inserts for the two exposure sizes are different?
I assume that the film advance distance is built into the back itself, not
the insert. I'm confident that you Bronica experts can teach me a thing or
three.

Thanks,

Rich

Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)






From: [email protected] (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 19 Mar 2003
Subject: Re: Bronica S2A film inserts

Hi Rich,

Re- Bronica S2A inserts.

The improved ones giving a flatter film plane have only one top roller
(instead of 2 as the older ones have) and are stamped "A" on the
side. You might also find some better one roller inserts without the "A".

Slipping can be caused by the rubber wheel in the inserts getting too clean,
smooth or oily. Try cleaning the surface of the rubebr wheel with a Q-tip
cotton swab with paper or wood (not plastic) stick and
Acetone/Nail Polish remover.

Best,

Sam Sherman

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